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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2020, 09:21:38 PM »
Let me be clear, I am a very strong advocate of caddies.   There are challenges now due to Covid but outside of that I think caddies are good for the game of golf and I use them often/when available. 


What I am mostly talking about, however, are clubs/courses that allow walking either when caddies are not available or at certain times of the day but DO NOT allow trolleys.  They only let you walk if you can carry the bag yourself.  This is what I think is ridiculous and elitist.   


SL,
You are lucky you can use your trolley but at some courses they won’t let you.  I would love to hear a list of those that allow trolleys.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 09:24:03 PM by Mark_Fine »

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2020, 09:26:47 PM »
Here in Chicago there has been a long standing tradition against the use of trolleys largely because of private clubs' overwhelming support of the Evans Scholar Program.  In order to keep caddie programs vibrant, most clubs choose to require those who walk to take a caddie.  While carts are allowed, trolleys and carrying are not.  Almost all of the clubs have an abundance of caddies.  It is a fine summer job and the WGA awards a lot of scholarships.  Clearly, some members would prefer to change the rules but in my experience, the vast majority like it the way it is.  Currently, during the Covid crisis, the State does not allow caddies and most clubs are allowing trolleys.
We are working to make the powers that be understand that the the use of caddies and social distancing are not mutually exclusive and I expect that the old rules will go back into effect at most if not all clubs when caddies are permitted.  Meanwhile, I am walking with a trolley.


Mind boggling to me to add $80 to $100 to the cost of a round. I like taking the a caddie now and then but that would be adding $1200 a month to my bill. Not happening.


Not allowing  a trolley is elitist but mandatory caddies if you walk isn’t?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 09:29:20 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2020, 09:39:11 PM »
Many clubs in the US have the opinion that trolleys are unsightly and project the image of public/municipal golf.


While it's a shame that private clubs are prejudiced against trolleys, I know at least one muni (in NYC) that doesn't allow them either — presumably for the same shallow reasons. 
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2020, 09:41:35 PM »
Mind boggling to me to add $80 to $100 to the cost of a round. I like taking the a caddie now and then but that would be adding $1200 a month to my bill. Not happening.


Not allowing  a trolley is elitist but mandatory caddies if you walk isn’t?


This seems to be conspicuously absent from most conversations about caddies. They're a tremendous added expense that would severely limit the number of rounds the vast majority of golfers could afford to play. I would play at East Lake more often if I didn't have to pay an extra $100 for the mandatory caddie (although I understand why they're mandatory -- if they weren't, they probably wouldn't get enough use to justify having a caddie program at all).

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2020, 09:51:41 PM »
Rob,   These are private clubs.  The members make the rules.  No one compels them to make the rules and no one compels anyone to join.  The WGA, through the Evans Scholar Foundation, has done a very good job over a period of many decades convincing clubs in our area of the benefits of a caddie program to the caddies, to the clubs and to the game.  There are some clubs that allow walking without caddies but they are in the minority.  Others, including my own, allow walking with or without trolleys when caddies are unavailable and for juniors. If club members believed that the extra cost of a caddie, (which can be less than you stated if you get a younger high school student), outweighed the ancillary benefits, they could vote to change the rules.  Elitist?  Perhaps that is the reason for some.  Beneficial to the kids who get summer jobs and other benefits and beneficial to the game?  Certainly true and the primary motivation for most folks that I know.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2020, 09:52:26 PM »
I think we can all agree there are times when we just want to “walk” and play golf and do so with no worry about anyone else including a caddie.  My opinion is that one should be able to do so (at least some of the time and/or at certain times of the day) and be able to carry or drag their own golf bag around the course anyway they want as long as they don’t to damage to the golf course or negatively impact anyone else playing.  Most every club has these time slots but far too many don’t allow a pull cart ???   They should be allowed!!! That is what is elitist!  What reasonable excuse do they have?



« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 09:56:09 PM by Mark_Fine »

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2020, 09:55:16 PM »

Any thoughts on the impact on the greens if these carts could be pushed/pulled through the greens?  There is an impact on the pace of play when they have to be rolled around large green complexes and creeks.
Lou - in Australia they allow trolleys to be taken across the greens... at least they did a few years ago when I was there for Scott Warren’s “Boomerang.” The greens are all some form of Bermuda. I don’t think it would be possible on any type of bent grass greens.


Michael,


They used to allow 'buggies' (as they are known as here) across all the greens on the sandbelt but no longer. Royal Melbourne banned it under the guise (real of not) of keeping poa out of the greens and the rest followed.
The majority of sandbelt greens are bent grass (the only Bermuda greens are in Queensland - same climate as Florida) and buggies never seemed to adversely affect the surfaces.
Having said that, at Metropolitan (where I'm a member) the greens are much better than they were when the buggies were going across - but there are other factors to consider in Metro's case.
Mike - it was quite shocking for us when we were told to take the buggies across the greens. It was difficult to pull the trigger, if you know what I mean.


And, now that I give the matter full consideration, it was actually while we were at Barnbougle when we were first encouraged to take the buggy across the green. Do they have different grass on the greens there?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2020, 10:03:19 PM »
Sure, a high end private club with dues in excess of $1,000 per month can expect its members to pay $100 or more per round for a caddie or perhaps $40 to ride in a cart but most clubs are not in that range.  Granted, the Evans Scholars are wonderful and should be encouraged but I would rather see a club with a full membership with members walking and carrying or using a trolley rather than a club where it is so expensive that only the very wealthy can join.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2020, 11:31:26 PM »
I have a well to do friend who was a member of an elite Long Island club. He told me that when he was a fully participating member his annual expense for caddies (which were mandatory on weekends) was well over $10,000 per year. He could easily afford this expense, but can you imagine? Most could not afford anything like this, but that is the point, isn’t it? The high cost of these clubs and their mandatory added expenses are just their way of separating the wheat from the chaff. As the old saying goes, if you have to ask the price you cannot afford it.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2020, 03:12:12 AM »

Any thoughts on the impact on the greens if these carts could be pushed/pulled through the greens?  There is an impact on the pace of play when they have to be rolled around large green complexes and creeks.
Lou - in Australia they allow trolleys to be taken across the greens... at least they did a few years ago when I was there for Scott Warren’s “Boomerang.” The greens are all some form of Bermuda. I don’t think it would be possible on any type of bent grass greens.


Michael,


They used to allow 'buggies' (as they are known as here) across all the greens on the sandbelt but no longer. Royal Melbourne banned it under the guise (real of not) of keeping poa out of the greens and the rest followed.
The majority of sandbelt greens are bent grass (the only Bermuda greens are in Queensland - same climate as Florida) and buggies never seemed to adversely affect the surfaces.
Having said that, at Metropolitan (where I'm a member) the greens are much better than they were when the buggies were going across - but there are other factors to consider in Metro's case.
Mike - it was quite shocking for us when we were told to take the buggies across the greens. It was difficult to pull the trigger, if you know what I mean.


And, now that I give the matter full consideration, it was actually while we were at Barnbougle when we were first encouraged to take the buggy across the green. Do they have different grass on the greens there?


Michael,


Yes - the greens at Barnbougle are a mix of fescue and bent with more of the former. Taking buggies across them does no harm and makes the walk much easier.


On the sandbelt, one of the unintended consequences of no buggies on greens has been ugly wear marks in the high traffic areas. Because the bunkers cut so close to the greens you have to walk around the bunkers and not just the greens.
The second unintended consequence is a good one - more people carrying clubs in small bags.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #60 on: June 14, 2020, 08:12:35 AM »
I would play at East Lake more often if I didn't have to pay an extra $100 for the mandatory caddie (although I understand why they're mandatory -- if they weren't, they probably wouldn't get enough use to justify having a caddie program at all).



So the justification in making caddies mandatory is that otherwise no-one would take one?


I really thought we'd got past that Luddite idea of labour protectionism. It smacks of the states that don't allow self-service gas stations because it protects the outdated jobs of people who really should be employed doing something else.


If there is a demand for caddies - great! If there isn't, artificially creating one via archaic rules is frankly ridiculous and goes against all free market principles.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 08:14:18 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #61 on: June 14, 2020, 08:31:27 AM »
I would play at East Lake more often if I didn't have to pay an extra $100 for the mandatory caddie (although I understand why they're mandatory -- if they weren't, they probably wouldn't get enough use to justify having a caddie program at all).


So the justification in making caddies mandatory is that otherwise no-one would take one?

I really thought we'd got past that Luddite idea of labour protectionism. It smacks of the states that don't allow self-service gas stations because it protects the outdated jobs of people who really should be employed doing something else.

If there is a demand for caddies - great! If there isn't, artificially creating one via archaic rules is frankly ridiculous and goes against all free market principles.

Duncan

Market principals are not relevant for private clubs.  Club rules are relevant.  Why do non-members care about club X rules?

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 09:27:20 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #62 on: June 14, 2020, 08:56:36 AM »
Here are some U.S. courses that I have played/am aware of that allowed trolleys before Covid.  It is not like any of these are well known or happen to be on various Top 100 lists   ;)  Just some run of the mill clubs that thankfully encourage walking and don’t particularly care how their golfers get their bag around :) Many have active caddie programs as well and some limit the times when golfers can use trolleys but at least THEY CAN!

Desert Forest
California Golf Club
Monterey Peninsula CC
The Olympic Club
Valley Club of Montecito
Ballyneal Golf Club
Yale
Mountain Lake
Streamsong
Atlanta Athletic Club
Shoreacres
Skokie
Crooked Stick
Victoria National
Prairie Dunes
Kittansett Club
The Country Club Brookline
CC of Detroit
Kingsley Club
Hazeltine National
White Bear Yacht Club
Old Waverly
Somerset Hills
Fishers Island
Maidstone
Quaker Ridge GC
Country Club of NC
Forest Creek Golf Club
NCR Club
French Creek
Philadelphia Cricket Club
Newport CC
Chechessee Creek Club
Country Club of Charleston
Harbour Town
Long Cove
Yeamans Hall
Holston Hills

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #63 on: June 14, 2020, 09:00:42 AM »
I would play at East Lake more often if I didn't have to pay an extra $100 for the mandatory caddie (although I understand why they're mandatory -- if they weren't, they probably wouldn't get enough use to justify having a caddie program at all).


So the justification in making caddies mandatory is that otherwise no-one would take one?

I really thought we'd got past that Luddite idea of labour protectionism. It smacks of the states that don't allow self-service gas stations because it protects the outdated jobs of people who really should be employed doing something else.

If there is a demand for caddies - great! If there isn't, artificially creating one via archaic rules is frankly ridiculous and goes against all free market principles.


Duncan


Market principals are not relevant for private clubs.  Club rules are relevant.  Why do non-members care about club X rules?


Ciao
Exactly, Sean. And, these clubs want a caddie program because it makes them special and unique. Again, it is a way to differentiate the club from others. It demonstrates that to be a member at that club one must have the proper means. It is a very American status symbol.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #64 on: June 14, 2020, 09:48:25 AM »

So the justification in making caddies mandatory is that otherwise no-one would take one?


I really thought we'd got past that Luddite idea of labour protectionism. It smacks of the states that don't allow self-service gas stations because it protects the outdated jobs of people who really should be employed doing something else.


If there is a demand for caddies - great! If there isn't, artificially creating one via archaic rules is frankly ridiculous and goes against all free market principles.


No on the first.  It is not that no one would use them, but that not enough would to sustain a healthy caddie program.  And by that I mean that those who do value a good caddie would be assured of having one available when they wished to play.  I was told by someone of great substance that some members at a top 5 American club with a mandatory caddie policy wait until the afternoon to play when no caddies are available.  A few who want to play earlier start near a small member's practice avoiding the first tee. 



SL and I have had this discussion before and I am in agreement with what he writes.  He knows his membership infinitely better than I do, but I would still would like to see the results of a secret ballot with no arm twisting on the issue (mandatory vs. optional caddies). 


On the second, job protection is hardly a thing of the past.  I won't go into details as I don't want to get into a scrum, but in the U.S., not a small part of the current discord has this at its roots.


BTW, I just learned of a wonderful career- tug boat captain.  The pay is astronomical I am told (by the son of a 35 year veteran in the field whose uncles and now cousins have followed)- a 28 year-old cousin is making $600k annually, working essentially half of the year.  The field is harder to penetrate than going to Harvard or Stanford, with nepotism controlling the gates.


On the third, talk about archaic, free markets that is.


Back on topic, the best I can gather, the biggest resistance to non-motorized carts (I love my ClicGear 3.0!) is simply the loss of revenues either to the club or to its caddie program.  We have some members at my club who play 5-6 per week, 200+ rounds each year.  Assuming $20 cart fees, that's $4,000k annually; 50% net profit margin, that's an extra $2,000 per member and even more in terms of free cash flow.  Even at equity clubs, carts subsidize other activities and it is pretty easy revenue because most members won't play if they had to walk.  In fact, on days when riding carts are restricted to the cart paths, maybe as much as half pass on playing. 


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2020, 09:55:34 AM »
The Evans Scholarship program needs to become 100% beneficial to minority candidates only. It’s time for the long established elite clubs in this country to step up. Of course this simple action would lead to increase trolley use throughout the U.S.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2020, 10:27:19 AM »
The Evans Scholarship program needs to become 100% beneficial to minority candidates only. It’s time for the long established elite clubs in this country to step up. Of course this simple action would lead to increase trolley use throughout the U.S.
Wow, John! That’s quite a comment on racism. Do you really believe fewer golfers would use a minority caddy?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2020, 10:30:56 AM »
No. Racists love minority caddies.

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2020, 10:34:52 AM »
I find it interesting when a club allows the trolley but charges a "trail fee" if you use one. One of my clubs has no additional charge to carry your bag - $10 trail fee to use my own trolley - $30/round to take a riding cart. Feels a little like nickle and dime in all honesty.


My other club went from mandatory carts in prime time to all walking with no trolley restrictions or trail fees (this was 4-5 years ago). The number of players who have converted to walkers have amazed me, a large number of them having invested in the electric self-propelled trolleys. Membership growth among younger players and their families have been very solid since the transition to open walking.


After years of carrying a lightweight single-strap I started using a Clicgear push-cart when my clubs took the water off the course upon opening after the shutdown (Carrying any meaningful volume of liquid gets heavy quickly). I have to say I really like it and probably will not switch back to carrying, even when things return to normal.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2020, 10:51:27 AM »
No. Racists love minority caddies.
Then I don’t understand your comment. Help me.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2020, 11:00:44 AM »
I find it interesting when a club allows the trolley but charges a "trail fee" if you use one. One of my clubs has no additional charge to carry your bag - $10 trail fee to use my own trolley - $30/round to take a riding cart. Feels a little like nickle and dime in all honesty.


My other club went from mandatory carts in prime time to all walking with no trolley restrictions or trail fees (this was 4-5 years ago). The number of players who have converted to walkers have amazed me, a large number of them having invested in the electric self-propelled trolleys. Membership growth among younger players and their families have been very solid since the transition to open walking.


After years of carrying a lightweight single-strap I started using a Clicgear push-cart when my clubs took the water off the course upon opening after the shutdown (Carrying any meaningful volume of liquid gets heavy quickly). I have to say I really like it and probably will not switch back to carrying, even when things return to normal.
Jim - I think part of the solution for the shrinking golfer population is to promote the golf as a health activity... directly combating the “old man’s lazy game” image which most young people see golf. If walking was encouraged and the game was promoted as a health activity I think more young people would give it a try. And, we already know that if they try the game a good percentage will get hooked. I’d love to see this tried somewhere and evaluate the response.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #71 on: June 14, 2020, 11:12:04 AM »
No. Racists love minority caddies.
Then I don’t understand your comment. Help me.


This is a nice article about some deserving Evan's recipients. An equitable compromise to mandatory minority participation in 100% of the scholarships including housing at everyones favorite universities would be allowing trolleys at participating clubs. It has noting to do with racism and everything to do with changing the face of golf.


Give me a one reason not to make the change. I think a 5 year trial period would be perfect.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/take-a-free-ride-to-college

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #72 on: June 14, 2020, 11:29:29 AM »
John - love the article. The concept of using a caddy program to help youngsters afford college is wonderful. But, as long as there are 1000’s of adult caddies protecting their turf I don’t see this expanding into the northeast corridor.


I still don’t understand why you think have the Evans program benefit minorities 100% would increase the use of trolleys. I’m sorry, but I’m a bit dense and can’t follow the logic.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2020, 11:47:55 AM »
Mike,


The article I linked mentions Aunt or Uncle 6 times. Letting Par Club members use trolleys would be a great way to sell the sweeping changes to the program.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walking with trolleys
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2020, 12:21:32 PM »
Barney, its not mandatory but in the last 10 years, well over half of the Evans Scholars from our club have been members of minority groups.  Similar numbers with our internal scholarship fund which covers all employees and their children.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 12:02:56 PM by SL_Solow »