[Lou_Duran]

Mark-


I've paid dues as a Struie member for three years and it looks like it will be a couple more before I am "promoted".


Mine was less of a complaint than an observation.  Of course the owners can do whatever they want.  I can either be a price taker, seek a better deal, or play elsewhere.


This approach seems to have proliferated in the UK and Ireland over the last decade.  It is uncommon in the U.S., perhaps Torey Pines being somewhat similar.  It appears to work there but not without considerable noise from the locals and subterfuge.


As a publicly owned facility, TP operates in the intersection of politics and economics.  And when supply doesn't come close to meeting demand, price becomes a thorny issue.


 

[Thomas Dai]

It isn’t just overseas visitors who often have to pay an inflated greenfees. Those from Eng/Wales/NI/RoI have to pay the inflated fee in Scotland to. As do the Scots if playing in E/W/NI/RoI or the Welsh if playing in E/S/NI/RoI or those from NI/RoI if playing in E/S/W or the English if playing in S/W/NI/RoI.
Some see it differently however .. rather than penalising outsiders they see it as merely giving locals a discount!
Atb

[Mark Pearce]

Lou,


Sadly it may be some time before it's relevant but I expect that your Struie membership comes with affiliation to the SGU, so I think you qualify for the "Scottish" rate (as I do as a member of two Scottish clubs), whilst my Scottish wife, living in England but born in Fife, doesn't!


I know that Dumbarnie has been offering limited numbers of tee times to local clubs at a significantly discounted rate, presumably with the hope of encouraging locals to play (or join).  I doubt there'll be many paying the full non-Scottish rack rate this year.

[Ian Galbraith]

Looking at the Dumbarnie website the 'scottish' deal seems to be based on primary residency not SG affiliation.

[Mark Pearce]

Looking at the Dumbarnie website the 'scottish' deal seems to be based on primary residency not SG affiliation.

Ah well, definitely won't be visiting then....

[Kalen Braley]

I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone would do this differently, especially since we aren't talking about providing an essential service, which would be an entirely different thing.  Its just golf, and plenty of other options abound....

1)  You get to be a member at a private course and play your golf for relative pennies on the dollar pound per round.
2)  Out of area and overseas visitors line up and voluntarily pay massive fees, with no one twisting their arms or compelling them to play.
3)  Most of the tee times for visitor play is when the course is half empty anyways, so you don't even have to witness the slow play and boorish behavior if you don't want to.

Why wouldn't you do this?

[Wayne_Kozun]

Lou


I agree with you on the differential pricing. It has always grated with me even though I benefit from it... but it does seem to be an American concept imported over here.

Niall

Niall - I don’t believe you can blame the Yanks for this one. We have nothing in the US resembling the guest vs visitor fee disparity that exists in the UK. At Deal, for example, a member’s guest can play for as little as £25, whereas it costs a visitor at least £170 in the summer season. At most US clubs the guest fee is closer to what one would consider a visitor fee. Anyway, most clubs don’t offer “visitor” play. Some offer “unaccompanied guests” (which are sort of like visitors) but, you can’t just phone up and make a time... connections are required through a member or one’s home club professional. I’ve never experienced anything like the system in place in the UK here in the US. The UK system definitely adds value to being a club member as one can entertain guests freely. And, it also makes networking a valuable skill for the traveling golfer! 😉

Torrey Pines is another example.  Locals pay about 30% of what visitors pay - depending on the day it changes slightly but locals pay about $60 vs $200 for visitors.

[Ulrich Mayring]

The funny thing is with memberships it's the other way round: overseas and other far away members pay considerably less than locals. The reckoning here is strictly a cost per round calculation: overseas members play rarely compared to locals, so in order to achieve a comparable cost per round, they must have lower dues.

Since greenfee is already a "cost per round", I don't see where playing frequency comes into it. But I do accept paying the regular rate as a visitor, whereas locals get a discount. What I don't accept is locals paying the regular rate and visitors being charged a premium.

[Mark Pearce]

But I do accept paying the regular rate as a visitor, whereas locals get a discount. What I don't accept is locals paying the regular rate and visitors being charged a premium.

I'm struggling to see what the difference is, I have to say?

[Sean_A]

But I do accept paying the regular rate as a visitor, whereas locals get a discount. What I don't accept is locals paying the regular rate and visitors being charged a premium.

I'm struggling to see what the difference is, I have to say?

+1.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

No difference at all in terms of the £££s being paid by the local and the visitor.


The difference is in perception. Everyone likes a discount and no-one likes the thought of being charged a premium.


So set the rack rate at the correct level for the overseas visitor and discount it for the local.

[Brian_Ewen]

Now, seven months on and having recorded in excess of 10,000 total rounds played, general manager David Scott is taking the opportunity to reflect on a quite incredible first year.

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/dumbarnie-links-reflects-on-hugely-successful-first-year-in-business

[Niall C]

When I played it recently with FBD and David Mac it was in very good order. Despite playing in the tail-end of a storm and playing very badly at that, I enjoyed the course and would probably go back at the concessionary price I paid but not at anything like full price. For a new course it was in very good nick. Not that I was on many fairways mind you.


It's got probably some of the widest fairways I've played - Castle Stuart wide some of them but despite that I suspect it would hold up a bit better for repeat play than CS. Highlights were the blowout bunkers - very well done, low lights were some of the green surrounds and tie-ins weren't brilliant which isn't to say they were bad. However the off course mini pyramids did look a bit silly in places.


Niall

[Brian_Ewen]

Dumbarnie Links to host 2021 Trust Golf Scottish Women's Open

Dumbarnie Links in Fife will stage the renamed Women’s Scottish Open, formerly the Ladies Scottish Open, this year as part of a series of exciting developments for the event.

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/dumbarnie-links-to-host-2021-trust-golf-scottish-womens-open-3176319

[Ryan Coles]

When I played it recently with FBD and David Mac it was in very good order. Despite playing in the tail-end of a storm and playing very badly at that, I enjoyed the course and would probably go back at the concessionary price I paid but not at anything like full price. For a new course it was in very good nick. Not that I was on many fairways mind you.


It's got probably some of the widest fairways I've played - Castle Stuart wide some of them but despite that I suspect it would hold up a bit better for repeat play than CS. Highlights were the blowout bunkers - very well done, low lights were some of the green surrounds and tie-ins weren't brilliant which isn't to say they were bad. However the off course mini pyramids did look a bit silly in places.


Niall

A few have said that CS and KB lose a lot of their appeal / interest after several rounds.


Is this the view of those who’ve actually had multiple plays? or more that the high greenfee in UK terms means it’s a one and done for most budgets?


‘The food here is terrible’ ...
...‘and such small portions’

[Niall C]

Ryan

I don't know if you were referring specifically to me but I've certainly made that comment, probably more so regarding CS. I've played both CS and KB about half a dozen times each with the CS games bunched closer together and that might have made a difference.

KB stands up better than CS principally because I think tee to green there is generally more to KB than CS. JL Low had a phrase about large greens being areas of inexactitude or something like that and that is what CS's fairways are like on an awful lot of holes. Acres of room with no real interest. I don't think it would take all that many bunkers to introduce some strategy and give it some real interest.

Niall

[Ryan Coles]

No certainly not specific to you Niall. Many have said similar and someone specifically mentioned KB in similar terms. Lacking interest, nuance and subtlety compared to its more traditional neighbours. Dumb blondes.


Have played both KB and CS and was very impressed with both but for me they are a one & done Or a once every 20 years.


I just wonder would I feel the same after multiple plays or is the bar higher because of the cost.


Thinking about it, CS is probably too wide in places, and sure KB is probably the easiest links course in Scotland. I suppose I’m at the stage where this is a good thing. One of my last trips was Portrush and it was just too difficult to be enjoyable and the Valley course was more than enough.

[Niall C]

Ryan


I think you could cure the excessive width at CS with a one or two judiciously placed centre-line bunkers plus maybe the odd bunker at the green. The greens tend to be schizophrenic; either tight, narrow and angled or wide and open. Mainly the latter. I wouldn't have a problem playing either CS or KB or indeed Dumbarnie again but not at anything like top dollar. All my previous plays at CS and KB were for no more than £40 or £50. Being relatively local I can take the offers when they come.


Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

I have been critical of CS in the past, describing it as a faux links... which it is. But, in it's defense, can it be too wide to satisfy it's stated purpose? The GM (at the time) told me the course was created to satisfy the "average" golfer and corporate outing so they could play the course at a good score and without losing a ball. It does this quite nicely. The more obstacles you put in the way the more frustrated the "average" golfer. It has a lot to offer for "fun" golf, which is my primary interest now (at my age!).

[David Jones]

I have been critical of CS in the past, describing it as a faux links... which it is. But, in it's defense, can it be too wide to satisfy it's stated purpose? The GM (at the time) told me the course was created to satisfy the "average" golfer and corporate outing so they could play the course at a good score and without losing a ball. It does this quite nicely. The more obstacles you put in the way the more frustrated the "average" golfer. It has a lot to offer for "fun" golf, which is my primary interest now (at my age!).

This describes Dumbarnie almost perfectly! Given lockdown, almost everyone I know from East Lothian went over to play it last year. 90%+ loved it.


The ones who didn’t were those who may be considered purists, or a little old school. There aren’t too many random bounces or odd lies at either CS or Dumbarnie. But a lot of people have a lot of fun.

[Marty Bonnar]

I do hope they televise (esp over the wrong side of the pond) the Women’s Open in August. It’ll give you guys a much better feeling of what the offering is at Dumbarnie. I get that it’s an expensive option for most, but combined with a trip which might include Kinghorn at twenty quid, Aberdour or Ladybank for twenty quid as a members guest    and maybe Kingsbarns or TOC as the main event, I believe it sits quite comfortably in the Fife/Scotland offering.
GCAers need to see it in much the same way they needed to see KB twenty years ago. It’s got all the shock of the new, with lots of ‘design’ to appreciate/experience/criticise.
F.

[Niall C]

I have been critical of CS in the past, describing it as a faux links... which it is. But, in it's defense, can it be too wide to satisfy it's stated purpose? The GM (at the time) told me the course was created to satisfy the "average" golfer and corporate outing so they could play the course at a good score and without losing a ball. It does this quite nicely. The more obstacles you put in the way the more frustrated the "average" golfer. It has a lot to offer for "fun" golf, which is my primary interest now (at my age!).

Mike


See here's the thing, I'm an average golfer and I want a bit of challenge. I don't necessarily want a narrow penal golf course where I'm constantly hunting for balls but neither do I want to be able to slog away with impunity. That just becomes dull rather quickly. Dicing with a hazard to get a better line in is part of the thrill. Without getting bitten every so often you wouldn't experience that thrill.


Of the three courses Dumbarnie perhaps does that the best followed by KB. CS could do that if they employed me as a consultant so I could show them where to plant a few bunkers 


Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

Niall - I’d let you and Sean bunker my course any day.

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/2327068/no-spectators-yet-but-huge-ambition-for-womens-scottish-open-at-fifes-dumbarnie-links/


No spectators yet but huge ambition for Women’s Scottish Open at Fife’s Dumbarnie Links
By Steve Scott
June 22 2021

Only locals and key workers in small numbers will be able to see the Trust Golf Scottish Women’s Open on site at Fife’s Dumbarnie Links in August but the championship is about to blossom, believe the new sponsors and organisers.

Due to remaining Covid-19 concerns the tournament organisers have opted not to have even reduced galleries at the much-acclaimed new course between Elie and Leven on August 12-15. A strictly limited number of “invitees” – which will include some Covid key workers but largely consist of locals – will be the only fans on site.

‘We felt we were no ready for that’

“It’s been decided not to open up to spectators as there is a huge risk attached to that,” said Ross Hallett, IMG’s senior vice president of golf events. “There will be a few community spectators who will be invited, but we are not going down the route of opening up the golf course.

“We felt we were not ready for that with all the uncertainty, but we want to have a community element and we are hoping to invite some key workers.”

[Michael Whitaker]

Yeah… but, they don’t have any uncertainty when it comes to allowing groups of golfers on the course and in the clubhouse at £250 per pop.

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