[Jeff Schley]

Not everyday a new links opens and in a nice location between St. Andrews and Edinburgh.  I was supposed to have a trip there later this month until the virus hit and travel is very problematic with quarantining upon arrival. I believe they just opened and curious if anyone has ventured over? It looks very special.



Rates aren't cheap unfortunately.
 

Standard Rate	£235
Replay Round*	£117
Fife Residents	£94
Scottish Golf	£115

[Jeff Loh]

Castle Redux

[David_Tepper]

Here is the Dumbarnie thread from a month ago:

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68324.0.html

[John Emerson]

Ugh why add white sand to bunkers!?  It looks so out of place.

[Niall C]

John


This is not a criticism but your reaction is interesting. I suspect that most folk looking at that aerial photo would have been struck more by the large pond. While not unique it's certainly unusual.


Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

Niall - I see what you mean about the pond, but it appears to be a collection point for the stream meandering through  the property. Still, it doesn’t look very linksy, does it? But, the white sand in the revetted bunkers looks a bit stark!

[Niall C]

Mike !!! It's a Scottish links - we don't do streams, only burns 


If you look at the rest of the photo by scrolling across you can see a number of burns.....OK drainage ditches, that feed into this pond. Given the landscape is man-made and the low points created as a consequence of using dirt/sand to build up features, then the pond has been created, and probably with the intention of using it as a feature. It's clearly a conscious decision.


Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike !!! It's a Scottish links - we don't do streams, only burns 


If you look at the rest of the photo by scrolling across you can see a number of burns.....OK drainage ditches, that feed into this pond. Given the landscape is man-made and the low points created as a consequence of using dirt/sand to build up features, then the pond has been created, and probably with the intention of using it as a feature. It's clearly a conscious decision.

Niall

Agree. Are there other links courses with such ponds? Eden comes to mind. Others?

[Lou_Duran]

At the rate of £235 I doubt that I will be a customer.  Of course, they can charge whatever they want, but after paying north of £1500 just to get there, it does not sit well with me that locals and nationals pay but a fraction.  Next time I go to CA to play on the Peninsula, I'll ask for the "national" rate.


The new PGA courses in Frisco are supposed to offer a substantial discount to city residents, but the complex was heavily subsidized by the local and state taxpayers.  Besides, the rack rate is probably going to be so high that even at 50% off during non-peak times, it may be a once in a year experience for most locals.


Re: the bunkers, I suspect that Niall knows what "naturalizing" these uniquely Scottish features means.  I was told by the superintendent at a world-class links that they are saving upwards £2000/bunker annually by naturalizing theirs piecemeal.  I like the look of revetted bunkers, but they're in stark contrast to the surrounding environment.  From the picture, the color of the sand doesn't bother me.  Neither does the pond for that matter.  I suspect that if there is resistance to the green fee, what appears to be an amply bunkered course will require alteration. 

[Ian Galbraith]

North Berwick WL has a drainage pond well hidden between the 9th fairway and the practice ground. You need google maps to see it.

[Mark Pearce]

Agree. Are there other links courses with such ponds? Eden comes to mind. Others?

Is being compared to the pond on the Eden the death knell for any supposed links?


I'm struggling to think of another Scottish links with a pond.

[Jon Wiggett]

Agree. Are there other links courses with such ponds? Eden comes to mind. Others?

Is being compared to the pond on the Eden the death knell for any supposed links?


I'm struggling to think of another Scottish links with a pond.

Not many Scottish but I think one or two Irish links have ponds. Having said that I am not sure this is anything other than a faux links. I am sure that at ground level the dunescape will look better but the aerial shot is really jarring. A case of the dunes following the holes rather than the holes following the dunes.


Lou,


spot on that the price is OTT but this seems to have happened at many of the top courses and obviously Dumbarnie is aiming to be in the elite club.

[Niall C]

Prestwick St Nich's has a deep pond that was created by quarrying out gravel/sand, or so I seem to recall. It is in play on one hole and creates a dog-leg with the pond being on the inside corner.


Silloth has a similar pond created as a result of quarrying but it is well hidden and out of site behind the 7th medal tee, and of course there is the Burnside course at Carnoustie that has one large pond which comes into a play as a flanking hazard along the side of one hole, and two other smaller ponds that I remember and aren't in play IIRC. Again I suspect all the Burnside ponds created as a consequence of obtaining material for the holes (similar to the Eden in that respect).


It's funny how they didn't need to do that back in the old days.


Niall

[Niall C]

Lou


I agree with you on the differential pricing. It has always grated with me even though I benefit from it. I could be wrong but I'm not sure any clubs do it but there might be some. IIRC it was Kinsbarns that started it, followed by Castle Stuart and now Dumbarnie. Not sure what Trump is doing at Turnberry and Balmedie but it does seem to be an American concept imported over here.


Niall

[Sean_A]

I can fully understand reduced fees for locals on these flashy new builds. It certainly helps with planning that the amenity is not wholly geared toward outside tourism.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

There are ponds on a number of links courses, usually driven by high water table issues, sometimes irrigation requirements.


There are a few water courses and ponds in dune slacks at Balmedie, all to some extent necessary as I understand it.

[Jon Wiggett]

I can fully understand reduced fees for locals on these flashy new builds. It certainly helps with planning that the amenity is not wholly geared toward outside tourism.

Ciao

Too true Sean. With Castle Stuart there were many locals who have taken up the great deal that was offered. Combined with the Scottish Open and the associated overnights/boost to the local economy there is a very good feel in regards to Castle Stuart in the Inverness region.

[Mark Fedeli]

Foreigners paying a juiced up rate to subsidize the reduced cost of play for locals on whose land the course was built sounds fine to me. Trump could learn a few lessons from that with his insulting pricing at Ferry Point, where, after the city put tens of millions into building it, city residents get a nearly meaningless discount compared to non-residents.

[Marty Bonnar]

Dumbarnie are NOT fleecing ‘foreigners’ by any stretch.
There’s a rate for Fife residents, there’s a rate for Scottish golfers and there’s a rate for EVERYBODY ELSE. Would I pay the rack rate? Hell, no, I’m Scottish - and a Fife resident...!    But, people will come from all over and will pay whatever the going rate is, for the experience - or not.
TOC and Kingsbarns have set a precedent in Fife for an exclusive, expensive golf experience. They have full tee sheets (in normal circumstances) and, unapologetically, provide a product which is in great demand.
I chose not to play Pebble when I was on the peninsula - yes, I was wrong, but, hey, no regrets!
F.

[Lou_Duran]

It is not like they're holding a gun to the head of us tourists, right, Marty?  I hope that they can pull it off, but I wouldn't bet on it.


We purchased a pricey all-day pass at Ballyliffin (sp) a few years back.  The weather was dreadful and we had the Old Course to ourselves.   One of the caddies commented that the club jacked up their fees a bunch on the theory that if they weren't high enough, the tourists wouldn't come.  I think that perhaps the decision makers took Veblen too much to heart as the caddie was lamenting that the tee sheet was so scant that she had a hard time getting a bag regularly.  The new course had a small local competition that went off in the afternoon, but was wide open otherwise.  Once and done! 

[Niall C]

Foreigners paying a juiced up rate to subsidize the reduced cost of play for locals on whose land the course was built sounds fine to me. Trump could learn a few lessons from that with his insulting pricing at Ferry Point, where, after the city put tens of millions into building it, city residents get a nearly meaningless discount compared to non-residents.

Ferry Point had public subsidy from what you say whereas Dumbarnie didn't as far as I'm aware. The locals as you put it didn't own the land, it was held privately. Furthermore the higher greenfees aren't subsidising the locals, it's what the owner needs to charge to encourage the locals to play there. It's a commercial concern and if they reckoned they could charge the locals more they undoubtedly would and maybe will do in future years.


Niall

[Michael Whitaker]

Lou


I agree with you on the differential pricing. It has always grated with me even though I benefit from it... but it does seem to be an American concept imported over here.

Niall

Niall - I don’t believe you can blame the Yanks for this one. We have nothing in the US resembling the guest vs visitor fee disparity that exists in the UK. At Deal, for example, a member’s guest can play for as little as £25, whereas it costs a visitor at least £170 in the summer season. At most US clubs the guest fee is closer to what one would consider a visitor fee. Anyway, most clubs don’t offer “visitor” play. Some offer “unaccompanied guests” (which are sort of like visitors) but, you can’t just phone up and make a time... connections are required through a member or one’s home club professional. I’ve never experienced anything like the system in place in the UK here in the US. The UK system definitely adds value to being a club member as one can entertain guests freely. And, it also makes networking a valuable skill for the traveling golfer! 😉

[Jon Wiggett]

Mike,


I don't think Niall was referring to member's guests rates but the Fife resident, Scottish resident and the rest all having different rates. I am not even sure that Dumbarnie will even have memberships or not.

[Tim Gallant]

Lou


I agree with you on the differential pricing. It has always grated with me even though I benefit from it... but it does seem to be an American concept imported over here.

Niall

Niall - I don’t believe you can blame the Yanks for this one. We have nothing in the US resembling the guest vs visitor fee disparity that exists in the UK. At Deal, for example, a member’s guest can play for as little as £25, whereas it costs a visitor at least £170 in the summer season. At most US clubs the guest fee is closer to what one would consider a visitor fee. Anyway, most clubs don’t offer “visitor” play. Some offer “unaccompanied guests” (which are sort of like visitors) but, you can’t just phone up and make a time... connections are required through a member or one’s home club professional. I’ve never experienced anything like the system in place in the UK here in the US. The UK system definitely adds value to being a club member as one can entertain guests freely. And, it also makes networking a valuable skill for the traveling golfer! 😉

Mike,


The only example I can think of is a State run facility like Bethpage. A quick check shows NY residents get a reduced rate over those from out of state. Not exactly like-for-like, but on the face of it, locals are given preferential rates.

[Sean_A]

Lou

I agree with you on the differential pricing. It has always grated with me even though I benefit from it... but it does seem to be an American concept imported over here.

Niall

Niall - I don’t believe you can blame the Yanks for this one. We have nothing in the US resembling the guest vs visitor fee disparity that exists in the UK. At Deal, for example, a member’s guest can play for as little as £25, whereas it costs a visitor at least £170 in the summer season. At most US clubs the guest fee is closer to what one would consider a visitor fee. Anyway, most clubs don’t offer “visitor” play. Some offer “unaccompanied guests” (which are sort of like visitors) but, you can’t just phone up and make a time... connections are required through a member or one’s home club professional. I’ve never experienced anything like the system in place in the UK here in the US. The UK system definitely adds value to being a club member as one can entertain guests freely. And, it also makes networking a valuable skill for the traveling golfer!

Mike,

The only example I can think of is a State run facility like Bethpage. A quick check shows NY residents get a reduced rate over those from out of state. Not exactly like-for-like, but on the face of it, locals are given preferential rates.

Which makes sense, no?

Ciao

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