Interesting Cavendish Snippet

[Adam Lawrence]

I just found a newspaper clipping from May 1923 that stated the Cavendish course (which was then under construction) would measure 6,280 yards. I wonder what happened to shorten it to 5,700?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Adam it's been discussed here before, butwhen courses were measured by rope they were often 10% longer than how we measure it today.  Even then they wanted courses to be of a certain length.

Just sayin.....

[Adam Lawrence]

I don't think it's that. I seem to recall club historian Richard Atherton telling me that Dr MacKenzie originally intended the third hole to be much longer, but he was prevented from using the field behind the current green. Presumably there must have been other routing changes.

[Niall C]

Originally it was going to be a 20 hole course and then they cut it back to 18.......only kidding obviously. Re measuring practices, they have varied over time but I doubt very much whether the stretched rope explanation would be it for a course designed after WWI. They were a bit more scientific by then.


However about that period I believe they measured from back of tee to back of green rather than the middle of green so that might have added some yardage compared to today. Also maybe they lost yardage when dog-legs got straightened out either through mowing patterns or from the landing area changing through the ball going further ?


Niall

[Duncan Cheslett]

Adam,


Here is the 1923 MacKenzie plan as approved prior to construction.


Plan1 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

Here is a plan from c.1930 showing what was actually built.

Plan2 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

And here is the course as it is today.

Plan3 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr


The 1st and 2nd holes were shortened by maybe 30 yards apiece and the 3rd by possibly 70 yards due to the field beyond the current boundary wall not being available as previously expected. The 4th tee was also moved forward but the green was moved back to the far side of the stream to compensate.

These changes would account for at most 150 yards of the discrepancy.  The 12th (old 14th) hole is also maybe 50 yards shorter and the 13th (old 15th) plays at a different angle than originally intended. The rest of the course is pretty much exactly as per Dr Mac's plan.

Here is the original card of the course from 1925

Original Card by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

This card reflects the original order of holes as per the MacKenzie plan. By the official opening in 1926 however, the running order had been changed to the current one reflected in the 1930 plan. It is not known whether MacKenzie was consulted on this change. but he did visit Cavendish subsequently and does not appear to have made mention of it in his correspondence with the club.

The course opened in 1925 with a total yardage of 5710.   Today's yardage is 5721 from the back tees.

I'd be very interested in seeing the article you've unearthed. I'm playing with club historian Richard Atherton tomorrow and it would be nice to discuss it with him.

[Niall C]

Well done, Duncan.

Isn't that just like MacKenzie, to push the boundaries, literally ! It would be interesting to know the story of that field and why MacK thought it was available. Has it been developed ?

Also, look at the size of the bunkers in Mac's plan compared to the as built. I haven't seen nearly enough of Mac's work in the flesh but the only MacK course over here I can think of approaching that scale of bunkers is Duff House Royal which is interesting in relation to the current thread on cost of maintaining bunkers. DHS is fairly modest club, even by Scottish standards.

Niall

[Duncan Cheslett]

Here is the snippet Adam found in the middle of a big page of impenetrable text from an obscure now defunct newspaper!


Sheffileld Daily Independent 23.05.16 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

I had wondered whether the 6230 yard figure might have come from MacKenzie's first routing unearthed from the Chatsworth archive, which was rejected by the Duke of Devonshire.

Plan4 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

The giveaway is the position of the clubhouse. The "toboggan slide" follows the line of hole#6 in the above sketch. Only when the current clubhouse site was decreed by the Duke did the routing fall into place.

The Duke clearly did us all a favour. The subsequent routing is an obvious improvement on Dr Mac's first effort! 

[Duncan Cheslett]

Isn't that just like MacKenzie, to push the boundaries, literally ! It would be interesting to know the story of that field and why MacK thought it was available. Has it been developed ?

The field belonged to the house marked "Gadley" in the map in my previous post. For what reason MacKenzie thought it would be available is not known, but in the event the owners of the house, two old spinsters, refused to sell or lease the land to the Duke for his new golf course.


The field is still there in its unaltered state. It is grazed by sheep from a neighbouring farm - whether it is now owned by the farm or leased from the current owner of the house I do not know. I really should find out!


The story is reminiscent of MacKenzie at Alwoodley, where his plan for the 11th tee lay outside the boundary of the property as was. Only subsequently were the club able to acquire this plot of land and complete MacKenzie's full design. By then unfortunately, Dr Mac had "pissed on his chips" as far as Alwoodley was concerned, and it is not known whether he ever saw it. 

[Niall C]

Duncan


If I remember my Silloth history correctly, it's a similar story at Silloth where I believe he wanted to move the 10th green to the field over the path but the club failed to do a deal with the farmer.


Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Duncan


If I remember my Silloth history correctly, it's a similar story at Silloth where I believe he wanted to move the 10th green to the field over the path but the club failed to do a deal with the farmer.


Niall

You have that problem in a large number of courses. Had the same at Carne. Was only looking for a quarter acre. Was only for walking space, not playing space.


Didn’t MacKenzie have the same with 10 at Alwoodley?

[James Boon]

Duncan,


Thanks for posting the very original MacKenzie sketch layout, fascinating stuff. I know this is seen through the eyes of a number of people who love Cavendish, but I suspect I'm not the only one that is seeing a layout that is quite poor in places? His 6th would have been a bit steep up that hill! Having said that, there is quite a bit there that survived to his next iteration that wasnt built, with 9, 8, 7 then 10 being his 1 to 4 by the look of it. Also the 5th in that sketch is pretty much the current 18th and the 17th in the original sketch is pretty much the current 10th. That would have made a great penultimate hole!


While the field in the north didnt become part of the course as you describe, they did manage to gain more land in the north west, as the original sketch doesnt have the land of the current 15th or most of the current 16th by the look of it. And only the 12th in the original sketch is on the embankment (about 14th green as currently is I'd say) with the current 6th tee, 5th green and 15th tee not within the original sketch red line.


Cheers,


James