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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2020, 05:53:27 PM »
Mike,

I had no idea he has over 400 courses to his credit, didn't think it was that many.

"Nicknamed the Black Knight, Mr. Fitness, and the International Ambassador of Golf,[6] Player is also a renowned golf course architect with more than 400 design projects on five continents throughout the world. He has also authored or co-written 36 golf books."

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2020, 06:01:03 PM »
I rather like Mad Dog better, but thanks for the correction.  I am still casting for that PV invitation, but the couple members I know are national and they get there only once or twice a year for competitions.  If and when my name comes up, Rolling Green is right up there next.


BTW, my mistake was not personal.  I once referred to Phillip Gawith as the "African Monster" for his prodigious length during lunch with 8-10 people at his club.  He was very polite and allowed me to finish the story before correcting me on his nickname- the "African Animal".   

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2020, 09:07:17 PM »
 8) ;)




Gary Player is a stud, saw him walk the first fairway at Pine Valley on his hands at the age of 45 or so! He was and is a great player and legend has it that he shoots his age every day and often by double digits even today. Never saw anyone hook every shot , including putts ( :o ) more than Mr Player, except maybe the amateur Jeff Thomas from North Jersey. Amazing that his bunker play was so special, as most guys who shut it aren't generally the best in the sand.


However, I've seen a bunch of his golf designs and frankly think they are pretty bloody awful.  Yep , I said it! From 90 degree doglegs,( almost exclusively right to left ) to crazy par fives and so on and so on I've yet to see a really good Player design. Sure they are out there but I'm guessing that most aren't really exceptional.


As to Rolling Green, it's a personal favorite of mine. Never forget the crowd around the 2nd green just waiting to watch the players in a USGA qualifier , it was incredibly hard. I hit it ten feet past the pin on four and told my caddy if I miss just hand me my sand wedge He did  ;D !  Under these conditions it's really difficult to get around but what a beautiful place. You could argue or just play on , and on that one I'm sure you better get the right architect if you don't want to blemish a beauty!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 09:25:50 AM by archie_struthers »

Mark Mammel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2020, 11:30:58 PM »
If I may, this thread started with the question of how much weight a club should put on the opinion of a pro after a single round. It has devolved into whether the readers like Gary Player or not. I know many of you are architects, and likely most others read, think and breathe golf and design. Why would any club or designer care what any pro has to say about their course after one round? Pros are great, they play the game better than we do. But does that mean they know much about design? Or, in many cases, anything? They know how they hit the ball. They know what shots and styles they like. And, as pros, it has been shown that they almost always criticize the lie, the weather, the super, or the layout when they hit shots that don't work. It's a defense mechanism to allow them to believe, really believe, they can always hit the shot that's needed and withstand the pressure of play at that level. It's not their fault! Many big name pros who "design" build courses that suit their game.

So to the original question, ignore what the pro says after his round unless he is also actually knowledgeable about architecture, and you have asked him to your club for that purpose.
So much golf to play, so little time....

Mark

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2020, 06:59:06 AM »
I have been a member of a few courses that have made changes based on a persons ability to diagram a sentence. Give a guy who won 9 Majors a break.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2020, 08:46:55 AM »
https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/29287618/golfer-gary-player-gets-5-million-legal-dispute-son-marc

Wow perhaps this was under the radar, but looks like his son was trying to abscond with some of his dad's profits.


WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. -- Hall of Fame golfer Gary Player will get $5 million and the rights to his name and likeness back from a company operated by one of his sons, according to court documents filed in Florida.
The 84-year-old golfer and the South Carolina-based Gary Player Group reached a settlement last month as the dispute was being arbitrated, documents filed Friday in Palm Beach County Circuit Court show. The group is operated by Marc Player, one of the golfer's six children.
Gary Player designs golf courses and sells golf equipment, sportswear and wine under the label "The Black Knight," his nickname.


There are no details in the court filings on what caused the dispute. Gary Player's attorney, Stuart Singer, declined to give details in a statement, saying only there was a "contractual dispute" and that the $5 million was for royalties due the golfer.
The group's attorney did not respond to an email seeking comment.
The South African golfer is the only non-American to win all four major championships: three British Opens, three Masters, two PGAs and one U.S. Open. He won 24 PGA Tour titles overall. He then won 19 times on the Senior Tour, including two U.S. Senior Opens and four other majors. He also won a British Senior Open.
Player lives in South Florida when he is in the United States.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2020, 09:04:39 AM »
Maybe Gary needs a practice round to learn what shots are necessary before going out and trying to post a number. He should be good enough to figure out what shots are necessary to effectively play the course.

After all, if Mayday can play it, anyone can play it.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2020, 09:08:07 AM »
Maybe Gary needs a practice round to learn what shots are necessary before going out and trying to post a number. He should be good enough to figure out what shots are necessary to effectively play the course.

After all, if Mayday can play it, anyone can play it.


Touché
AKA Mayday

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2020, 11:22:58 AM »

So to the original question, ignore what the pro says after his round unless he is also actually knowledgeable about architecture, and you have asked him to your club for that purpose.


Is having designed 400+ courses not enough?  I'm guessing that's a very very short list of architects who can claim that...

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2020, 12:32:46 PM »

So to the original question, ignore what the pro says after his round unless he is also actually knowledgeable about architecture, and you have asked him to your club for that purpose.


Is having designed 400+ courses not enough?  I'm guessing that's a very very short list of architects who can claim that...

Having your name on 400+ courses doesn't guarantee you have designed a single course.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2020, 12:43:37 PM »
Tillinghast only spent a few hours at many of the courses he consulted and proposed changes during his PGA consulting contract.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2020, 01:02:04 PM »
Gary Player is an inspiration to me in terms of how he's kept fit as to lengthen his career and life.   


On the other hand, having played several courses he designed, I'd take his design advice with a boulder of salt.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mark Mammel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2020, 01:23:28 PM »
Gary Player is an inspiration to me in terms of how he's kept fit as to lengthen his career and life.   


On the other hand, having played several courses he designed, I'd take his design advice with a boulder of salt.
I'm with you. Player is a truly inspiring figure, from his early recognition that fitness is a key to great play to his remarkable multi-continent tournament career. But my point is that a single look at a course will not be enough to actually recommend changes to the layout.
So much golf to play, so little time....

Mark

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2020, 02:33:05 PM »
Of course you don’t make changes to your golf course just because a pro has a few comments.  That said, Gary Player isn’t your ordinary pro and while I am NOT a big fan of his golf course designs, his comments are still worth at least noting.  He does make a valid observation about the course and as Jim stated in his post, it is not just one or two holes that have very severe false fronts.  I personally don’t mind the severity, you have to deal with it, but honestly I don’t love it and I don’t believe Flynn would either (we will never know for sure).  The part I don’t love is that most of the balls funnel back to the same spot which is loaded with divot holes.  This has nothing to do with fairness, it has to do with design intent/maintenance.  I really think if Flynn saw how all the balls ended up back down the hill in front of a half dozen or so of his greens in six foot circles full of divots he would change something.  The key message, however, is that what he would change shouldn’t be decided by one quick tour of the property by some golf pro even if it is Gary Player.  But Mr. Player did pick up on an obvious short coming of the golf course. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2020, 04:52:15 PM »
Why is it an "obvious shortcoming"? If instead the course had 5 blind shots to be played, and the two that were on tee shots that caused Gary to complain about bad positioning for his approach, are they an "obvious shortcoming"?

They are only blind the first time around. Is not failure to play an appropriate approach to a false front the first time around  not just a lack experience problem likewise?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2020, 06:25:54 PM »
Garland,
I explained my thoughts about as well as I could including what I thought Flynn might think of the holes as to how they are played and maintained today.  I’ve watched a three foot putt there lip out of the hole and roll 60 yards off the green down the fairway into a pocket of divots.  That is golf sometimes and you deal with it but too much of a “good thing” is usually not good.  To me it is a shortcoming of the golf course to have so many greens with that feature.  I love Flynn probably as much as anyone but I am not too much in love that I feel I can’t be critical of his designs.  The course is still a solid Doak 7 but this aspect holds it back for me from being an 8.  What do you think of the course? 

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2020, 06:40:05 PM »
It’s more an obvious challenge than a shortcoming. Flynn wanted a championship course so he used the many rises to create difficult approaches.  There is much variety in these approaches with only a couple of holes HISTORICALLY having a roll back of 50+ yards.


Only the short par four 12 has a narrow opening to the green. Firmness is key to allowing the ball a chance to bounce on.


I think good players don’t like the bounce it on option thinking they can control their shot. For us 14 handicap players rolling it on is an often used approach.


As we have lowered heights there are now more holes where the ball rolls back  30 yards. That’s addressable and Player has a point.


I believe Player wants a sameness to the challenge. He doesn’t want something “ unfair”.


Our members though love the challenge and adjust since they get to play it again and again.


It’s all good.


I think it is very difficult to design a course on our terrain and Flynn did it with a genius that has little blindness from the landing area. Only 15 is blind from the tee ( recent tree removal is changing that) so you see the whole green from the tee and can plot your way.


My personal view is that for an avid golfer who plays often it provides endless delight because the challenge changes constantly with the conditions.
When you’re hitting up the variables are many.


The small issues aren’t architectural they are maintenance.


While I don’t want this to just be about Rolling Green courses with distinctive challenges are what a seasoned pro like Player focus on most.


AKA Mayday

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2020, 08:33:01 AM »
Mike,
If all the members love it, that is what matters most as they are the golfers who play there every day.  I really like Rolling Green but I will stick with my opinion about what holds it back from being even better than it is. 


Getting back to the main question which is listening to a pro's suggestions or anyone for that matter and making significant changes as a result in my opinion is NOT recommended.  I have always said if someone visits your golf course and immediately recommends "improvements" after one visit, don't walk away from them, RUN.  That said, it is always good to listen and sometimes they will float ideas that are worth contemplating and thinking through.  I recall years ago Tom Weiskoff visiting Lehigh CC and making many comments (mostly very positive) but some critical about the golf course.  A normal question that anyone might ask is "What did you think of the golf course?"  If all you are expecting is praise and glory that is one thing but if you really want an honest opinion, you should expect some critiques that might not be glowing.  Gary Player is a very candid doesn't hold back kind of guy so I could see him being less than diplomatic with his comments.  We all know that pros in particular tend to be much more concerned about "fairness" so that is something to keep in mind.  At the same time, something that is seen as "unfair" might be tolerated and even praised unless it is overused.  The Devil's "A#@hole" Bunker at Pine Valley is almost inescapable for all but the better golfers.  If a half a dozen holes had that same feature, it would not be as revered as it is now (though some will still think it is too penal)  ;) [size=78%].  [/size]




JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2020, 10:24:50 AM »
What was interesting to me was that I had played the course a handful of time as a kid and #8 was the only hole that registered as having this dramatic feature...that of the balls ability to roll significantly back off the front of the green.


Now, when primed for tournament play (read: lower HoC on Greens AND Fairways) this can happen on #'s 1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 12, 14, 15, 17. Many of those are 15 - 20 yards, but a handful are truly 50+ yards.


Based on that simple observation, I'm guessing/suggesting the fairway heights are the singular culprit...

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2020, 10:41:22 AM »


What was interesting to me was that I had played the course a handful of time as a kid and #8 was the only hole that registered as having this dramatic feature...that of the balls ability to roll significantly back off the front of the green.


Now, when primed for tournament play (read: lower HoC on Greens AND Fairways) this can happen on #'s 1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 12, 14, 15, 17. Many of those are 15 - 20 yards, but a handful are truly 50+ yards.



Based on that simple observation, I'm guessing/suggesting the fairway heights are the singular culprit...






Might just be a LOFT problem...

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2020, 10:58:43 AM »
That's my issue for sure...the guy I played with got it up and down after the return 3 of 4 times.


I'd have been absolutely crippled...

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2020, 02:03:09 PM »
What was interesting to me was that I had played the course a handful of time as a kid and #8 was the only hole that registered as having this dramatic feature...that of the balls ability to roll significantly back off the front of the green.




Now, when primed for tournament play (read: lower HoC on Greens AND Fairways) this can happen on #'s 1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 12, 14, 15, 17. Many of those are 15 - 20 yards, but a handful are truly 50+ yards.


Based on that simple observation, I'm guessing/suggesting the fairway heights are the singular culprit...


3,11,18 just to be fair.


Jim,


I like your historical take and recommendation.
AKA Mayday