Pros suggesting changes after one play. Your thoughts?

[mike_malone]

 Gary Player played Rolling Green this weekend. While highly complimentary of Brian Chapin’s presentation particularly the greens he criticized our uphill approaches with fairway height grass.
 On two holes 4 and 6 his ball rolled back down 40 yards. He said “ I hit a great shot!”.


He said it’s too hard for ladies and that he can’t imagine the members putting up with that.


HE SUGGESTED WE BRING SOMEONE IN TO BUILD UP THE FRONTS OF THE GREENS!!!!


I was amused at his confidence that he knew what was best for us.


Meanwhile the course was crawling with happy golfers and our intermediate membership is on a waiting list.

[Mike Schott]

Gary Player has many admirable qualities but modesty is not among them. In this case perhaps he's playing the wrong type of shot.

[Jason Thurman]

I can suggest a lot more changes after one play of a course than that.

[JESII]

Well, ok...


But, first hand examples from my two rounds at Rolling Green a year ago in a GAP tournament;


First hole, pin is short left and one player hit a short iron about pin high (6 or 8 paces into the green minimum) 30 feet right of the hole. It appears to stop then begins a slow trickle back and left, ultimately finishing 25 yards short of the front apron and in the first cut on the left.


Same player, 4th hole. Pin is again short left, maybe 12 yards into the green. Hits a wedge of some sort from 110 in the fairway. Lands about pin high but definitely too much spin. Goes Off the front edge with a little speed and stops 90 yards later.


8th hole, watch the group in front hit a shot from the right rough to the front edge of the green before turning around and stopping 50 yards later.


9th hole, pin right up front second day. Player putts from 30 feet behind the hole. Admittedly a little firm, but it eventually stopped about 15 yards off the front edge.


12th hole, pin short left. Player hits a good tee shot so only has 90ish yards. Hitting the ball long right leaves a nightmare putt so he’s aiming about at the pin. Pretty good shot that just spins back a little then trickles back 20 feet then off the green and 10 yards down the hill into the rough.


15th hole, first day, pin in the back, player hits wedge into crest of the ridge bisecting the green, spins back slowly, but made it all the way to the front edge and fell off. The ball stopped 100 yards from the middle of the green.


There are 3 or 4 other holes on which the ball could go off the front of the green and funnel 5 - 15 yards away, sometimes in the rough.


I really like Rolling Green.


When it is spruced up for a tournament and the greens are a little soft, there can be some serious questions.

[mike_malone]

 Jim,


I saw you out there pulling your hair out.


  I think some of these issues could have been averted by better pin placements. I also believe that it’s not necessary for balls to come that far down the hill.  We can reduce that problem by grass height. I’m sure Flynn didn’t intend balls to roll that much downhill. Speeds of fairways in 1926 were much less.


We solved that issue on 4 by increasing heights only slightly.


For some shots though good players who produce a lot of spin need to adjust their shots.
I spoke to Jeff Osberg about this specifically.


We don’t want to lose the signature of our steep approaches but the consequences need to match the mistake.


It ain’t building up the fronts needlessly.


Jim Nagle artfully raised the front of 15 and it has eliminated putts rolling off the front from the top tier.

[JESII]

I think height of cut is the ideal solution.


Players do need to control spin, no doubt...but the front pins, when the greens are a little soft, produce an extreme dilemma.

[mike_malone]

 In this day and age when technology has brought golf courses to their knees we need some quirk and uncertainty as a defense.


On those front pin examples taking your medicine was required but good golfers think they can cut it close.




We are gradually moving toward the standard set by a Huntingdon Valley for firmness but Mother Nature needs time.

[Adam Clayman]

HOC of the greens? If you're suggesting changing the HOC of the surrounds, I say that's sheit.


A great shot does not get defined by how one feels they hit the ball.

[JESII]

5 instances of a ball falling off the front edge for a variety of reasons...average next shot was about 60 yards.


This is not good quirk. HOC of the fairway approach so the player doesn’t need a yardage for the next shot...

[Sean_A]

Gary Player played Rolling Green this weekend. While highly complimentary of Brian Chapin’s presentation particularly the greens he criticized our uphill approaches with fairway height grass.
On two holes 4 and 6 his ball rolled back down 40 yards. He said “ I hit a great shot!”.

He said it’s too hard for ladies and that he can’t imagine the members putting up with that.

HE SUGGESTED WE BRING SOMEONE IN TO BUILD UP THE FRONTS OF THE GREENS!!!!

I was amused at his confidence that he knew what was best for us.

Meanwhile the course was crawling with happy golfers and our intermediate membership is on a waiting list.

Its an opinion. Take it at face value and move on.  Its a bit much to expect all opinions to be 100% complimentary.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Clearly Gary didn't think the person he was speaking to was important enough.

An old club pro told me the story of how he had qualified for and played in the British Seniors Open at RCD. In the practice round he was joined by Player and one other. All the way round Player slagged off various aspects of the course exclaiming it wasn't fit for purpose. All that changed when they got to the 18th and Player spied the captain of the club standing behind the green with various members of the R&A championship committee. After giving a cursory handshake to his playing partners he rushed over to the group standing behind the green and in a voice loud enough to carry back to his playing partners started praising the course to the hilt. Not one word of criticism.

Another Gary Player story. I once had the pleasure of walking round Kingsbarns with Mark Parsinen and I recall he stopped at a bunker and remarked that Gary had played not long after the course opened and suggested filling the bunker in because he thought it unfair. It was a gathering bunker and apparently Player had hit what he thought was a good drive and ended up in it. Changes were made to make it less of a magnet but it is still there or at least was the last time I played. I recall joking with him that why was Player so concerned, after all he's supposed to be one of the best bunker players in the world. He was a very nice man, Mr Parsinen.

Niall 

[jeffwarne]

depends on the pro
depends on the change


always consider the source
always question how "perfect" the shot was that led them to that conclusion, and if they would hit that same shot on a second play

[Anthony_Nysse]

5 instances of a ball falling off the front edge for a variety of reasons...average next shot was about 60 yards.


This is not good quirk. HOC of the fairway approach so the player doesn’t need a yardage for the next shot...

I don't know what Brian is mowing approaches at, but I assume tight. BUT-mowing an approach at say, .250-.300" & a fairway at .500 will provide nice definitions & options. That .25" isn't going to stop many balls from rolling down a hill, especially now that many courses are rolling approaches for firmness & disease suppression.

[mike_malone]

 As I said I was amused. He didn’t suggest the putting surface be built up. He suggested we build up the fairways in front by 15/20 yards. I just thought that was a bit cheeky.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
One of the other challenges with all those perched greens and false fronts is the balls tend to roll off and collect in the same areas which are full of divots.  As you said, Flynn never expected balls to roll as they do now.  Do you think he would have advocated the current situation? 


We have a similar situation at #17 at Lehigh but balls tend to scatter more than collecting in the same spot.  I like false fronts, but too much of a good thing can get old. 

[jeffwarne]

I'm always amazed at the (suggested) responses to a HOC problem.
Grass will grow if you let it..
and it's far cheaper than dirt.


Someday, at high end, state of the art clubs and courses, someone will have the balls to employ classic "lite" agronomy with classic architecture..
The features that still exist(or be returned) will shine and fulfill their strategic and fun purpose,great pins will be used, and an 8 handicap might USE and HIT the center of his 7,9 iron or wedge from 10 yards out again...
and that player who has a wood in on very second shot, and doesn't want to be pandered to with a tee 50 yards up, will actually be able to put a club on the back of the ball with pinching out a divot, like they could back in the day when grass grew on fairways.


and amateurs can stop using hybrid every... single.... time they miss a green.


Somewhere along the way, the lovers and admirers of links turf (a good thing)began to confuse firmness with HOC and speed, at the expense of aeriel and semi aeriel options by the medium and lower skilled

[mike_malone]

Mike,
One of the other challenges with all those perched greens and false fronts is the balls tend to roll off and collect in the same areas which are full of divots.  As you said, Flynn never expected balls to roll as they do now.  Do you think he would have advocated the current situation? 


We have a similar situation at #17 at Lehigh but balls tend to scatter more than collecting in the same spot.  I like false fronts, but too much of a good thing can get old.

Yes Mark this tendency to arrive at the same spot needs to be addressed.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Player was said to be quick to blame every bad shot on something.  Supposedly, he once skulled a bunker shot and came flying out to tell his opponent his ball was sitting on a small stone, which caused it, not his fault, of course.  He was also well known for saying just the right thing in public, while being harsher or at least more careless with words in private.  That info came from my acquaintances who knew him from the PGA Tour, not my own. 


My own Gary Player story was to be paired with him in a pro am, and being dressed down by him in front of our gallery (pretty big) for choosing a 7 iron to chip instead of a putter.  I am sure he felt he was only trying to help (as my Mom would always say) but I was pretty embarrassed at the length and loudness of the advice. (I will guess he was using me to give a free playing lesson to the gallery, a good thing in his mind, and not a bad idea, but still embarrassing.)


Short version is, the man has opinions on golf and golf design, and is not afraid to share them.  I suppose he has earned that right.

[Joe Bausch]

Time to lighten up this Player thread with my lone experience with him, this posted before but will be new to many of you:


I've had one GP experience and it was a beaut.  2003 SR PGA Champ at Aronimink, 1st round, I get him, Floyd, and Kite to score for.  I had heard that GP could be interesting after a round in the scorers tent, and I was ready.  RF had played poorly and was outta there before I could sit down and wasn't interested in triple-checking his score w/ mine.  TK was super polite, and after reading off the scores, again thanked me for volunteering.  Then GP proceeds to have me read the scores for the front, then the back, then the back again, then the front again, the front in reverse, back in reverse, then from memory he recalls each score himself, etc, etc.  TK has decided to stay in the trailer and experience the whole thing.  When finally done checking his score every way under creation, GP goes on this long speech to Kite about why he does this relating to being DQed in a GGO round years ago.  "So Tom, the last thing I do before leaving the scorer's tent is make darn sure I haven't signed for a wrong score", he says.  Then Tom quips, "Well, that is very nice Gary.  But I would suggest the last thing you do today before leaving the scorer's tent is zip up your fly".  GP had gone to the player's restroom right after the round and had forgotten to zip up.  Priceless.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
As we all know there are MANY great courses (old and new) that have perched greens with severe false fronts.  #10 at Shinnecock Hills immediately comes to mind as does #1 at Sand Hills.  I recall missing a ten foot putt from above the hole at Sand Hills on #1 and having a full gap wedge from down in the fairway for my next shot.  That can happen at Shinnecock as well.  The difference (and challenge) that Rolling Green has is that it has as Jim pointed out A LOT of greens like this and if can make any golfer, good or bad, weary.  I have taken golfers to Rolling Green and for some they struggle to look past this. 

[mike_malone]

The course has a unique challenge with the number of raised greens. The members love that. It never gets boring.

[John Kavanaugh]

The course has a unique challenge with the number of raised greens. The members love that. It never gets boring.

That is why you have members as opposed to random visitors looking for a cheap rate. What was the purpose of Mr. Players visit?

[mike_malone]

He has a relative nearby and came as a guest of a member.

[Lou_Duran]

I admire Gary Player.  Have never met him, only played a few of his courses and they were fine (I rather like the ones at The Woodlands near Houston and Cougar Point at Kiawah Island).


A college friend, himself a very good player, caddied for GP the entire week of the 1964 PGA at Columbus CC. Tom was a young kid at the time, but he grew up on the course and was an experienced caddie.  Eight or more years later when he was relating stories of the tournament to me you could tell that GP made a very strong, positive impression on him.  I recall him saying that he was paid well, maybe $200 (our annual student pass at OSU's Scarlet & Grey Club was under $100 all the way through 1978).


I wouldn't dare criticize anyone's baby.  Especially one nicknamed "Mad Dog Malone" (or do I have the wrong guy?).  I remember once trying to explain to a GCAer who was an assistant at Valhalla why his course was not a Top 10 in the Golfweek list.  It didn't end well, but it was a good lesson learned.  Me, I am waiting for the invite to Rolling Green.  I'll be sure to bring some 20 year-old wedges with worn-out grooves and a sleeve of Pinnacles.

[mike_malone]

 Lou,


It’s Mayday and your invite is an open one.




 I encourage criticism of our course and agree with GP that the tendency to roll down so far is worth considering.


I just felt his idea that we needed to drastically adjust the course was ill informed and biased by his own experience.


He certainly enjoyed himself and engaged with members at numerous times of his round.


He spent ten minutes giving a young guy a lesson.