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Ran Morrissett

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Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18 New
« on: June 03, 2020, 09:25:54 AM »
 https://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/feature-interview-no-7-with-tom-doak/

Books are like golf courses; they come in all shapes and sizes. Tom Doak’s latest contribution to his profession, Getting to 18, is his grandest scale book to date, both figuratively and literally. Be warned: it won’t fit neatly in most book shelves given its width. It is the definition of a coffee table book.
 
As you likely already know, it covers routing courses, which is arguably the least understood and most important subject matter in golf course design. Tom walks you through his first eighteen designs and the roles that routing played in each. Something different is gleaned from each chapter, be it on drainage on a flat site like the Heathland or routing up, down and around luscious sandy landforms as at Barnbougle Dunes. Each site presents its own puzzle and the more experienced the architect is at problem solving, the better. The importance of the owner shines through, too, and the fewer restrictions he places on the architect, the better as well.
 
Our generation of golfers has been very fortunate to grow up in a period when great architects were given great parcels and they knew what to do. Getting to 18 opens the kimono on just how some of those courses came to fruition. Packed full of diagrams and photos, the book nonetheless centers around Tom’s long form writing. Nobody is better at summing up a course in a scant 100 words but Tom’s deep dive on this crucial subject matter remains characteristically pithy, if less caustic. The term ‘minimalist’ applies to his writing too; the man never waste words.

Getting to 18 might prove cautionary as well. Given the paucity of new construction, is the next wave of people who can route courses being developed? Hard to know. Restoring a Golden Age course doesn’t develop the skill set for routing nor does building shaggy, handsome bunkers of the sort that populate Instagram. Routing comes from doing. Pete Dye helped bring along a wave of talent, in part because he remained busy building new courses for five (!) decades. That hasn’t been the economic landscape for a decade now. There are bound to be some consequences.
 
I love books and like with most things, if you feel like you got a bargain, even better. $385 for the book, delivered, stings any wallet but with time, you may well look back and consider it just that - a bargain. Put another way, I have spent $385 some days for golf, caddy, food/drink and in hindsight, not received value for money. You will have no such regrets adding this book to your collection.

Best,
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 06:37:45 PM by Ran Morrissett »

Thomas Dai

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2020, 01:04:56 PM »
Now looking forward even more for the books arrival.
Atb

PCCraig

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2020, 01:22:56 PM »
Looks terrific. Call me a fan boy all you want but I have all of Tom Doak's books and they are still the best and most read from my library.


After listing to Tom's podcast a couple years back on routing, which was mind-blowingly interesting to me, I know this will be a super informative and interesting read.


Can't wait to get it in the mail whenever it comes.


Thanks as always to Ran and Tom for a great interview.
H.P.S.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2020, 05:02:04 PM »
I would really like to know if Tom has ever looked at a project and said that the course routing was bad and if so, was he able to do anything with it? Did he ever turn down a project because there was nothing he could do because of the routing?

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2020, 01:50:51 AM »
I would really like to know if Tom has ever looked at a project and said that the course routing was bad and if so, was he able to do anything with it? Did he ever turn down a project because there was nothing he could do because of the routing?
jerry,


Not sure I understand what you mean by “the course routing was bad”. Or “there was nothing he could do because of the routing”.
Tim Weiman

Ira Fishman

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2020, 07:19:40 AM »
A most enjoyable and readable interview. Until I came to this site (no pun intended), I never thought even once about how critical drainage is to golf course architecture. 


One quirky question: did either Mr.O'Neal or Mr. Sattler take up the game after they developed the courses?


Ira

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2020, 03:06:17 PM »
Tim: I was thinking of a situation where he came to a hole and said this is not good but because of the sequence of holes and the topography he couldn't fix what was wrong with it, i.e. the hole was a sharp dogleg right and it never should have gone in that direction as the better routing would have been straight but that would be a problem now dealing with the next hole.

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2020, 04:56:53 PM »
Tim: I was thinking of a situation where he came to a hole and said this is not good but because of the sequence of holes and the topography he couldn't fix what was wrong with it, i.e. the hole was a sharp dogleg right and it never should have gone in that direction as the better routing would have been straight but that would be a problem now dealing with the next hole.
Jerry,


Thanks. I can’t speak for Tom, obviously. However, my sense is that Tom tries to implement the best overall routing for a golf course, even if there is some individual hole that might be considered less than perfect.


Tom once gave me a tour of Lost Dunes and seemed a bit apologetic about the location of the 1st tee relative to the clubhouse, though he did say he worked hard to achieve the best overall routing given the site’s constraints. Honestly, by the time we reached the 1st green, I pretty much forgot about the 1st tee location.
Tim Weiman

Niall C

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2020, 08:02:21 AM »
Very enjoyable interview and looking forward to receiving the book.

Niall

Tom_Doak

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2020, 08:55:05 AM »
Unfortunately this thread came out right as I left on a two week consulting road trip, so pardon my delay in responding.


When I get home on June 13, the first 600 books will have been delivered, and I will sign them and ship to most who pre-ordered a book, in the order received.  If you ordered early, you'll have it just before or just after Father's Day.


The rest of the books will be delivered to us at the end of June, and redistributed accordingly.  More on this as the date gets closer.


John Mayhugh

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2020, 01:11:58 PM »
Thanks for the interview.
Really interested in learning more about Tom's process. His comment about only presenting a single routing to a client makes so much sense.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2020, 01:35:55 AM »
Thanks for the interview.
Really interested in learning more about Tom's process. His comment about only presenting a single routing to a client makes so much sense.


I've only had one client who understood how to read a topo map.  (Bill Foley, our client at Rock Creek, learned in college at West Point.)  The rest are just reacting to how they like the drawing, not to how the holes fit the land, because they can't tell.  So, you do not want them to be making routing decisions based on that.  You show them golf holes on the ground, get feedback, and adjust some pieces accordingly.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2020, 10:56:07 PM »
Tom -
all of which has me wondering again about the validity of design 'competitions' / bidding for jobs, where several architects submit their proposed routings to the same client or committee. Not one in a hundred such decision-makers would even have the slightest clue as to what they were looking at and pretending to judge/evaluate. I couldn't survive in your business, not least because after even just one successful course under my belt it would drive me crazy having to 'audition' for my next assignment or submit my work on 'spec'. Good on you and bad on me: I'd want to think I was standing on principle, but in fact I'd be indulging in churlish ego!

MClutterbuck

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2020, 06:53:02 PM »
Thanks for the interview.
Really interested in learning more about Tom's process. His comment about only presenting a single routing to a client makes so much sense.


I've only had one client who understood how to read a topo map.  (Bill Foley, our client at Rock Creek, learned in college at West Point.)  The rest are just reacting to how they like the drawing, not to how the holes fit the land, because they can't tell.  So, you do not want them to be making routing decisions based on that.  You show them golf holes on the ground, get feedback, and adjust some pieces accordingly.


Hard to believe!




Tom_Doak

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2020, 11:32:44 AM »
Books arrived yesterday - will ship 100-150 today.

Colin Macqueen

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2020, 05:04:59 PM »
Tom,


Hope I'm booked in here living in far-flung Oz!


Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Daryl David

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2020, 09:51:46 PM »
Got a notification. Mine is on the way. Thanks Tom.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2020, 04:19:36 PM »
Tom, do you really think the reluctance to do anything but 18 holes is mostly about handicapping, given how small a % of golfers^ actually keep a handicap index?

^ Most "serious" golfers keep a handicap, and many of the not-so-serious golfers might only play four rounds a year, but still…

BTW, as you know, the USGA will issue a rating for a non-18-hole course. I looked into it when I looked to take over a six-hole course over the winter, and I think someone here even helped steer me in the correct direction.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2020, 05:55:19 PM »
Tom, do you really think the reluctance to do anything but 18 holes is mostly about handicapping, given how small a % of golfers^ actually keep a handicap index?

^ Most "serious" golfers keep a handicap, and many of the not-so-serious golfers might only play four rounds a year, but still…

BTW, as you know, the USGA will issue a rating for a non-18-hole course. I looked into it when I looked to take over a six-hole course over the winter, and I think someone here even helped steer me in the correct direction.


I don't know that it's just handicapping, it's more about posting a score.  Guys want to say they broke 80 without having to clarify that it was only for 16 holes.  I think that's actually one of the reasons working against par-68 or 69 courses being accepted here, too.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2020, 10:51:04 PM »
I don't know that it's just handicapping, it's more about posting a score.  Guys want to say they broke 80 without having to clarify that it was only for 16 holes.  I think that's actually one of the reasons working against par-68 or 69 courses being accepted here, too.
Thank you. That clarifies it a bit in a way in which I agree much more - the "I shot a 78" guy might not keep a handicap. Heck, the "I shot 88" guy might not, but they still want to say they shot a number without having to clarify that it was a par 67 course or they only played 16 holes because that's all that course has.

It is good, IMO, that more famous places are setting up some odd numbered routings (odd being unusual, not 1, 3, 5, 7, 9) to help make golfers a bit more comfortable with playing 16 or 14 holes.

I even think somewhere like Thistle Dhu should mix it up some days and not play 18 holes - play 15 with a few really long ones, or play 20 with some short, super tricky holes. But that'll probably stay 18 "holes," too. I try to get my juniors to play matches (often putting matches) until one of them is "three up" and they don't care how many holes that takes. Sometimes it's 12, sometimes it's 25, but when they get three up they just count that as a "win" and start the next match. They carry over from round to round, and it doesn't matter if they play holes 1, 2, 16, 17, and 18 late in the day to add five more holes on, because they're just worried about whether they're getting closed out or closing out their opponent. And if they win on 17, they have the chance to get 1up on their next match by winning 18.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Scott Warren

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Re: Feature Interview No. 7 with Tom Doak - Getting to 18
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2020, 02:15:49 AM »
Erik,

When Bonnie Doon in Sydney was being redesigned, there was the best part of a year that we had only 13 holes open for play.

There was some predictable complaining ahead of time from within the membership, but once it had been in place for a couple of months, there wasn't really anyone who had a problem with it, and plenty reckoned it was pretty much the perfect amount of golf.

Some of us managed to play more golf because it was a sub three-hour exercise rather than four-and-a-quarter, and others just spent an extra 90 minutes in the bar and then went home to families who were none the wiser.

There's some serious barriers, I think, to fewer holes becoming more prevalent generally, even though in practice it works so well.

Likewise two-ball golf, which is a different but similar story.