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Pete Lavallee

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I just finished reading the late Bill Yates book “Out of Time” on pace of play.  He made a compelling case on how golf courses could create a sense of flow and most importantly keep golfers from having to wait on the course. One of his most important tenants was proper tee time spacing; very few golf courses can afford less than 10 minute intervals if they want good flow.


When San Diego Co. returned to golf on May 1, the Co. recommended 10 minute spacing between tee times to avoid contact between groups. It was literally heaven on the golf course. No waiting for the group ahead and not being pushed by the group behind. In our last weekend Tournament we got stuck at the back of the pack at 11:45 but finished both rounds in 4:10; normally these groups would take well over 5 hours to finish.


As soon as restrictions eased the course went to 9 minute spacing, allowing one extra group off each hour. Sure enough we were nut to butt and had several waits. The Scots have it right: wait for the group in front of you to reach the first green and then tee off. The course flows beautifully and slow groups stick out like sore thumb.


In the face of overwhelming evidence that this greatly improves the experience and should allow more play later in the day due to less back up, how can we convince operators to stick to this scheme?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
That is about right. Assuming a course pace at 4:20 there will 27 groups spread around the course at 10 minutes intervals, 30 or 31 groups at 9 minutes. In the first scenario one or two groups can be a bit slow without interfering with the overall flow, very little wiggle room in the other scenario.
At 9 v 10 minutes per tee time a $50 green fee increases revenue $1500 to $2000 a day.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
we have tee times for the first time ever.
8 minutes apart for first 45 minutes(two balls), 9 for next 45, the 10, then 11,then 12
Haven't seen a group wait yet.
Starter's times always seemed wasteful to me,rather than just using that gap to space tee times one minute farther apart each

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
I always thought it was common courtesy to wait until a group has reached the first green to tee off.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
You’ll have a Marshall up your ass if you don’t tee off when the group ahead is just out of range on the munis here in SD. 7 minute spacing demands that. As Pete mentioned you can squeeze 8 groups out with 7 minute spacing however things bog down around 10:00 and you are no longer teeing off on time.


This is the conundrum I’m referring to, Bill always insisted that despite the extra revenue brought in by cramming golfers onto the course, a facility would be just as profitable with fewer golfers per hour. His main rational was that the course could accommodate golfers later in the day by assuring them of a close to 4 hour round and not a death march. They could also eliminate the early twilight rate and command premium green fees until 4 hours before sundown. Does this calculus really compute though?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
FYI - There is another thread about Bill's book.

As many know, Bill and I became great friends. Sadly, my last conversation was a private phone call of which we basically said our goodbye's. That made for a difficult day, at least for me.

On the matter of teeing off when the group is "out of range", this was among Bill's most famous "tests" when he would visit a course. When we played Olivas Links (one of my designs, CA) we found the starter all set up with a pleasant podium, score cards, pencils and water bottles. Here, a nice older nice man given the 'starter' status told us about the native areas, the paspalum turf and other course facts. I played along. He was extremely nice. But, as Bill would say later, also "clueless"!

Bill announced to the starter that our tee time was 10:20am, and then asked him when we should hit away. "As soon as that group moves around the large tree at the right," came the answer. So, we complied...but only to appease this nice old timer.

Bill had his stopwatch with him. And would write notes every few holes. Later on he explained in detail how the policy of "hitting away when it's clear" was the absolute bane of the course and its congestion. "One little thing," he said, "would make all the difference here."

Of course that assignment never came as Olivas Links (and Kemper Sports) did not have a line item in their budget for Pace of Play Consulting! I always joked with Bill about this — "Bill, the problem with what you do is that no one knows where to get the few thousand dollars to pay for your evaluation and training!"
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 10:51:24 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
As evidenced by the Costco threads I do not believe the modern golfer will pay a premium for what they think they deserve. They will quit putting and catch the group in front of them just to prove they have been ripped off.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bill would disagree, and explain that pace of play is really about "quality" and the consumer will pay for consistent quality at every turn.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bill would disagree, and explain that pace of play is really about "quality" and the consumer will pay for consistent quality at every turn.


My comment is partially based on the fact that despite that quarantine golf has produced much quicker rounds they are still not quick enough for the same ole unhappy people. It truly is unfortunate that your friend is not able to study golf as it exists today.


I am truly amazed at the number of golfers who miss having a cart partner. I got a note today from a club asking me to change my shoes in the parking lot. It's becoming a sociopaths utopia out here.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Here's an analogy: You go to a neighborhood coffee shop and order some sort of latte. It's between 8-9am and the lines are long. It just takes forever. You visit at 10:30am and you get a piping hot latte, quickly and without issue. Over time you will only go after 10am, or you will move to another coffee shop because the one you had been visiting could not deliver at that "magic" time when you really wanted a latte.

Same with a golf course. How many of us say, "Forget [XYZ Club] if you don't get out before 7:30...it's a waste of time on a Saturday..." ?

Consumers want consistency. And when a course loads up and backs up, those time slots are 'bad' and will be avoided. Eventually the consumer (golfer) takes notice and the bad reputation spreads. Rather than the common Bell curve of round times...escalating to the point of absurdity...a golf course should deliver a more consistent round time. FLOW.


« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 12:29:26 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2020, 01:05:19 PM »
Rather than bore you with the Yogi Berra quote I thought you might enjoy this:


https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/08/29/too-crowded/


Wouldn't a course that makes their clientele miserable soon find itself empty thus speeding up play? My wife and I will only eat at a restaurant where we can get a table immediately without a reservation. This is done by either going somewhere that is too expensive or too shitty for any sane consumer. I find this same strategy works for golf.


I can't tell you how happy it makes me that Cheesecake Factorys in urban malls will soon be closing. They are the perfect combination of expensive and shitty that my wife loves. Kinda like my love of a $250+ Fazio.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2020, 01:11:51 PM »
Bringing this full circle with the other thread about Courses you have dissed, I think the narrative fits in perfect here.


A course that provides a good timely experience at a decent price will get my business over ones that don't or won't.  Yes there are exceptions to this for bucket list courses like Pebble, but those are one offs..

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2020, 01:20:10 PM »
Wouldn't a course that makes their clientele miserable soon find itself empty thus speeding up play?


The course I’m talking about is Coronado Municipal GC, by far the most popular muni in SD; flat and easy to walk, the weekday rate is $40. I’m playing on an 80 round annual ticket which works out to $24/round. Our monthly weekend tournaments run from sunup till noon. We had a waitlist of over a 20 golfers last month due to the 9 minute spacing.


The place is so popular that even with a hike in green fees it would still be packed from dawn to dusk. I’m afraid Bill’s theories only work for golf courses that have dead time in the late afternoon. The real question is why would the course pass up the extra $1500 per day income to give a better experience to their already loyal customers? I know I’d gladly pay more for the 10 minute spacing and a better experience, but how do you convince a super busy golf course that this is a worthy goal?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2020, 01:22:25 PM »
Bringing this full circle with the other thread about Courses you have dissed, I think the narrative fits in perfect here.


A course that provides a good timely experience at a decent price will get my business over ones that don't or won't.  Yes there are exceptions to this for bucket list courses like Pebble, but those are one offs..


I agree.  The market will sort it out. Golf is a business.  If golfers are willing to pay at a course with 5 hour rounds, then 5 hour rounds will continue.  If a course finds that having shorter round times generates more play and revenue, then their methods will prevail.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2020, 01:37:14 PM »
It is interesting that you bring up Pebble, where Bill Yates consulted for many years. As you may have heard, he SLOWED play on several holes leading up to No. 7, all in an attempt to KEEP THE GROUPS PLAYING...instead of WAITING!! No one complains when they are playing smoothly with good flow and no waiting. After all, we are in the great outdoors, with friends and the game we love. It is the waiting that strikes a bad chord.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2020, 01:43:13 PM »
Speaking of traffic. My wife is generally unhappy with Orlando because she hates to drive. I just reminded her that before the pandemic Orlando would have 65 million tourists a year. That won't happen again for a large part of our personal existence. She lit up like a candle at the thought of those big beautiful highways all to ourselves. She even thought that we could get a big new house in that fancy neighborhood that we can't afford. It's a magical delusion. I'll let her fix me some pie tonight before I fill her in on the downside.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2020, 01:49:57 PM »
I suspect the highly populated areas of So Cal are similar to NorCal where I spent my first 5-6 years of golf...and that is oversubscribed.  Just plain not enough supply for the local population. 

In my experience you either adapt to slower rounds, or spend time in the car driving out to less populated areas, which I would do on occasion.

I guess they could keep raising green fees until demand met supply, but i'm glad they didn't, or it would have meant no golf for me with the budget I was on at the time.

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2020, 10:22:14 PM »
In my experience you either adapt to slower rounds, or spend time in the car driving out to less populated areas, which I would do on occasion.


This is what I tend to do in Atlanta. I'd rather drive 45 minutes each way to a course where we can play in 3.5-4 hours than drive 15 minutes to a course that takes 5+ hours to play. The driving is far more pleasant than sitting and waiting on every single shot.


It also helps that the courses 45 minutes away are generally better than the ones nearby, but that's a secondary concern.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2020, 02:06:52 PM »
Proves Bill's point. "Quality" is not something the golf course management world has taken seriously. Quality relative to consistency. I assume you WOULD take the less longer travel to play a course if it were a consistent round time without waiting?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2020, 02:47:19 PM »
Proves Bill's point. "Quality" is not something the golf course management world has taken seriously. Quality relative to consistency. I assume you WOULD take the less longer travel to play a course if it were a consistent round time without waiting?


Forrest,

In a vacuum of course.  But when an area already can't meet local demand, having less supply of tee times due to being spaced out even further only makes the problem worse.  The question then becomes, "Where am I driving to this week" because that golfer has an even slimmer chance of getting a local tee time.

The only solutions I see for these areas are, build more courses, or raise prices to reduce demand.

P.S. On a side note, its also seems many public courses in high demand/low supply areas don't make improvements.  If the tee sheet is already packed sun-up to sun-down, where is the motivation?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 03:00:21 PM by Kalen Braley »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2020, 03:28:19 PM »
I agree.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2020, 03:47:18 PM »
Forrest,


Is a full tee sheet just a full tee sheet. Does a course prefer any certain type of golfer over another?

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2020, 05:37:53 PM »
You guys are whiners.  Try sixsomes every six minutes.
https://golf.com/travel/ala-wai-hawaii-muni-mondays

There are lots of munis that can raise rates and get better conditions.  If you are ever really bored (like right now) take charge of your local muni and then announce that you are raising greens fees.  The next 90 days of your life will be full of entertainment.

Muni rates are 100% a function of politics, not economics. 


Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2020, 05:59:03 PM »
Proves Bill's point. "Quality" is not something the golf course management world has taken seriously. Quality relative to consistency. I assume you WOULD take the less longer travel to play a course if it were a consistent round time without waiting?


If the courses were of similar quality, absolutely. In my scenario I'd probably still prefer the travel time just because I think they are overall better golf courses, but I'd certainly be more willing to play one of the closer courses if I knew I wasn't going to have to deal with miserable waits.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bill Yates vision realized and then abandoned in less than a month
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2020, 08:15:39 AM »
What is the balance between proper spacing and enough tee times? Will golfers leave the game if they can't get a time? Speaking of public-access here, not the private clubs that many of this lot frequent.


We know that saw about taking time off, then not missing something. I took 2 days off a social medium as a mild protest, am on day 4, and not certain that I will return. Might the same happen with golf?


Coronado Muni, in its truncated iteration, has some areas that lend to backing up, no? I do love that course. Such a cool location, under the bridge that caused its shrinkage.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!