"I prefer to lay out a course on level land."

[Garland Bayley]

Who wrote it?

[Tom_Doak]

Not me   


I remember this, but won't be the spoiler.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I don't know who said that, but a few years ago I was at a ASGCA/EICGA event at Alwoodley and was sat at dinner with a long time associate of Tom Fazio.


Apparently Fazio's ideal site for a golf course was a 200 acre parking lot.

[Jeff Schley]

I don't know who said that, but a few years ago I was at a ASGCA/EICGA event at Alwoodley and was sat at dinner with a long time associate of Tom Fazio.


Apparently Fazio's ideal site for a golf course was a 200 acre parking lot.

Then he could bring in his bulldozers and make it whatever he wanted. Like a blank canvas to create something. Not the most cost effective way certainly, but if isn't his money.

[Thomas Dai]

Best not let him near the Himalayas putting course at St Andrews.
atb

[Tim Passalacqua]

I feel like I just read that Donald Ross said that.  Maybe after he built Seminole.  It’s a shot in the dark.

[Tom_Doak]

I feel like I just read that Donald Ross said that.  Maybe after he built Seminole.  It’s a shot in the dark.

But Seminole is not flat.  The 25-foot ridge on the west side of the property is the making of the golf course, and Ross understood that better than anyone.

[Garland Bayley]

I feel like I just read that Donald Ross said that.  Maybe after he built Seminole.  It’s a shot in the dark.

Pretty accurate for shooting in the dark. You must have been using night vision goggles.

In his statement about Seminole in Golf Has Never Failed Me, he wrote "In these days of steam shovels and modern improvements, it is possible to do wonderful things on flat, level country."

"I have come to the conclusion that I prefer to lay out a course on level land."

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sort of stupid thing i'd say.

[Joe Hancock]

Sort of stupid thing i'd say.

Not stupid. Convicted in A persons beliefs doesn't equate to being stupid. There were, and are, plenty of architects who tell us what they think the best golf course consists of (rules of design), and I am glad there are many others who are willing to break those rules.


I prefer the person who is strongly convicted of their design principles, even if I disagree with them, over the person who blows with the wind.....or worse, has no idea in what they value.

[Lou_Duran]

Back in the early '90s I attended a 3-day golf development seminar (Crittenden) in Atlanta where me and my then partner met with a half-dozen or so architects at length and a similar number informally.  Most if not all described their ideal site as rectangular, 200-250 acres depending on the siting of the clubhouse and the location of creeks, with some ground movement and enough elevation change for surface drainage.  I don't know that such a site can yield a world-class course without an adjoining ocean and $$$$$ for construction, but I don't think that most of us are after that.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Maybe Ross was just a tad strong in his statement to what he really meant.


Most architects will tell you that they don't like flat sites, but the trade off is they can implement their design philosophy more perfectly.  That is, if they have a preference for a certain yardage, par, par rotation, etc.


I also prefer selling to a client who has a flat site, as I think it gives me an advantage.  It seems like no other architect has designed more courses on flat sites than I have, which should give me an edge on the experience ranking.

[Kalen Braley]

My Initial guess would have been Pete Dye,


But perhaps his creedo would have been "I prefer the sites no one else wants to work on'

[Tim Passalacqua]

I feel like I just read that Donald Ross said that.  Maybe after he built Seminole.  It’s a shot in the dark.

Pretty accurate for shooting in the dark. You must have been using night vision goggles.

In his statement about Seminole in Golf Has Never Failed Me, he wrote "In these days of steam shovels and modern improvements, it is possible to do wonderful things on flat, level country."

"I have come to the conclusion that I prefer to lay out a course on level land."

Garland,


I did remember that correctly!  And I can't believe he said it!  Immediately, I think about Mid Pines. It is one of my favorite routings in golf.  Pine Needles, Southern Pines, Holston Hills.....all excellent courses on hilly property.  He produced such great courses on hilly sites.  How could he feel this way?!?!?!  I prefer a hilly course to a flat one.  For me, it's more exciting.  More interest in the shots.  Uphill, downhill, uneven lies.  More to think about and process instead of getting the yardage and just hitting it that distance.  Do you know anymore about why he felt this way?  And how far along in his career was he when he made that statement?

[Adam Lawrence]

"Golf at its very best, the golf of St Andrews and Hoylake, is played on level ground; the uphill shots are disappointing, and the downhill ones often uncalculable".
[/size][/color]
[/size]JOHN LAING LOW[/color]

[Adam Lawrence]

Which is, I guess, proof that 'level' doesn't mean 'flat'

[BCrosby]

"Golf at its very best, the golf of St Andrews and Hoylake, is played on level ground; the uphill shots are disappointing, and the downhill ones often uncalculable".

JOHN LAING LOW

Good catch.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Although Mr. Low does not explain WHY uphill shots are disappointing and why he would accept the incalculable nature of linksy fairways as great fun, but condemn the same notion in downhill shots. Perhaps he did not know any decent courses on undulating land or, depending on when he made that statement, there may not even have been any at all.

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

"Golf at its very best, the golf of St Andrews and Hoylake, is played on level ground; the uphill shots are disappointing, and the downhill ones often uncalculable".

JOHN LAING LOW

Gosh, in my estimation the terrain at TOC is a fair bit better at TOC than Hoylake...and I think the relative qualities of the courses reflect that difference.  It also makes me wonder how much betterDeal became after these words were written.

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

I feel like I just read that Donald Ross said that.  Maybe after he built Seminole.  It’s a shot in the dark.

Pretty accurate for shooting in the dark. You must have been using night vision goggles.

In his statement about Seminole in Golf Has Never Failed Me, he wrote "In these days of steam shovels and modern improvements, it is possible to do wonderful things on flat, level country."

"I have come to the conclusion that I prefer to lay out a course on level land."

Garland,


I did remember that correctly!  And I can't believe he said it!  Immediately, I think about Mid Pines. It is one of my favorite routings in golf.  Pine Needles, Southern Pines, Holston Hills.....all excellent courses on hilly property.  He produced such great courses on hilly sites.  How could he feel this way?!?!?!  I prefer a hilly course to a flat one.  For me, it's more exciting.  More interest in the shots.  Uphill, downhill, uneven lies.  More to think about and process instead of getting the yardage and just hitting it that distance.  Do you know anymore about why he felt this way?  And how far along in his career was he when he made that statement?

His statement is very short, and the book gives no indication of when he made it. The best guess would seem to be shortly after he finished his work at Seminole.

[Jeff_Brauer]

At the risk of offending certain members of this discussion group, I have to wonder if the full quote was, "I prefer to lay out a course on level land, because that makes the "paper jobs" all that much simpler."

[Bret Lawrence]

To add some context to the quote, Ross had been working on Sagamore (near Lake George) and Country Club of Waterbury around the same time frame as Seminole.  CC of Waterbury and Sagamore were likely two of his most difficult courses to build.  They were set on very hilly sites full of rocks. I believe he even has a quote about Waterbury being one of his toughest jobs.  The courses came out great and are fun to play 90 years later, but it doesn't mean he enjoyed building them on mountains of rocks.