[Clyde Johnson]

Am I correct that the original 16th TOC version now has an area of rough much closer in to the left hand side of the fairway than in previous times?
Atb

Yes.  There's almost no fairway left of the bunker, so the choice to go left has been removed.  Proving the Links Trust don't "get it".

They even started roping off that area, asking golfers to lift and play off a mat these past few winters to make sure the area left survives as rough. (It's not the only place on the course.  )

[Thomas Dai]

Am I correct that the original 16th TOC version now has an area of rough much closer in to the left hand side of the fairway than in previous times?
Atb

Yes.  There's almost no fairway left of the bunker, so the choice to go left has been removed.  Proving the Links Trust don't "get it".

They even started roping off that area, asking golfers to lift and play off a mat these past few winters to make sure the area left survives as rough. (It's not the only place on the course.  )

Sounds rather disappointing. Moustaches and the Mona Lisa come to mind.
atb

[Tom_Doak]

Personally, I think that using the form of the Principal's Nose in a location that's not compelling is as vapid as the various Church Pew bunkers in China, or the replicas of the Swilcan Bridge in Japan.  But putting a nasty bunker right in the landing area of a hole and forcing the golfer to decide what to do in response?  Priceless!

But this is a thread celebrating that!  And a post about the possible equivalence of the strategic challenge of the original to the 4th at Woking has been ignored.

Celebrating which?  I wasn't sure.  Many people seem to love the knobby bunker form, independent of its position.  To me, that's just one of those things people like because it makes them seem knowledgable.


Also, "possible equivalence" ?  Stuart Paton and John Low were pretty intentional about having copied the 16th at St. Andrews with their feature at Woking, and Bernard Darwin wrote it up as such.  The Woking hole has not only the bunker in the landing area, but a boundary with a train line on the right, also like the original.

[Tom_Doak]

Yes.  There's almost no fairway left of the bunker, so the choice to go left has been removed.  Proving the Links Trust don't "get it".

Is this really on the Links Trust?  Surely all of the architectural decisions made about The Old Course in recent years had to do with championship play, which is not really the Links Trust's purview.  They have to sign off on it, but I've got to believe the idea originated with the R & A's retired secretary.


Also, I find it interesting that consulting architects are generally celebrated for all the changes being made to UK courses, but when someone really steps in it, it's the client's fault and no architect is named at all.

[BCrosby]

John Low was wrote that the PN on the 4th at Woking was modeled on the PN on the 16th at TOC.. He was clear about where the idea came from. Interestingly, it replaced an old Willie Dunn cross bunker that extended across the fairway.


The new bunker on the 4th was extremely controversial. So much so that a young Tom Simpson visited the hole to see what the fuss was about. He recounts how impressed he was with the thinking behind it. It seemed to play a role in his decision to become a golf architect. Using a design idea from TOC on an inland course marked an important moment in the transition from Victorian design ideas to more modern, 'strategic' ideas. A big deal.


Often forgotten are the PN bunkers on the MacK 11th at ANGC. They disappeared sometime in the early 1950s. MacK also designed C/L bunkers (both since moved from the center of the fw's) on the 2nd and 8th holes. I'm not sure they count as true PN bunkers, but they would have affected shots similarly.


Bob 

[BCrosby]

I meant to add that I don't know why PN (or C/L) bunkers are not used more often in the landing area of second shots on par 5s. Seems an obvious and interesting design idea.


I am curious to know Alice Dye's objection to the one TD designed at Piping Rock.


Bob

[Tommy Williamsen]

I meant to add that I don't know why PN (or C/L) bunkers are not used more often in the landing area of second shots on par 5s. Seems an obvious and interesting design idea.

Bob

I would think that a second shot principal's nose would be very difficult to build given that players will be hitting their second shots from varying distances.

[Jay Mickle]

The Principal's Nose on the 10th at Dormie is a great visual example that take a backseat to the vast natural area that must be carried to reach it.

[BCrosby]

Tommy -


Yes, but playing from a tee and playing a second shot on a par 5 both involve golfers hitting the ball a wide range of distances. In theory, if a PN is an effective feature in one context, it should be effective in the other. That doesn't mean a PN affects all golfers equally or that a PN is a good idea for all holes.


As TD suggests, there are good and not so good ways to use a PN.


On the 18th at Yeamans, for example, there are C/L or PN(?) bunkers that add interest to the second shot on a par 5 for a wide range of players.


Bob 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy -


Yes, but playing from a tee and playing a second shot on a par 5 both involve golfers hitting the ball a wide range of distances. In theory, if a PN is an effective feature in one context, it should be effective in the other. That doesn't mean a PN affects all golfers equally or that a PN is a good idea for all holes.


As TD suggests, there are good and not so good ways to use a PN.


On the 18th at Yeamans, for example, there are C/L or PN(?) bunkers that add interest to the second shot on a par 5 for a wide range of players.


Bob

One thing about a PN for a par five second shot is that it will always be in the landing area for someone.

[Thomas Dai]

A slight divergence, but how would folks feel about a PN type and size feature but with water not sand in it?
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

I meant to add that I don't know why PN (or C/L) bunkers are not used more often in the landing area of second shots on par 5s. Seems an obvious and interesting design idea.

I am curious to know Alice Dye's objection to the one TD designed at Piping Rock.

I have put bunkers in the center of the fairway for par-5 second shots several times.  Both the 12th and 15th at Pacific Dunes have them.  [The 3rd has bunkers in the center off the tee.]  The Loop has a couple of them [and a couple more on the par-4's].  Even one of the par-5's at Charlotte Golf Links had one.


As to the 10th hole at Piping Rock, to be fair, that was my idea and not a feature that we were restoring.  Of course, a lot of Mr. Dye's ideas for the place were not true restoration, either -- he did not believe in that -- but the Dyes did believe I shouldn't ad lib on their plan without asking!

[Carl Rogers]

As a "through the green" hazard doesn't the PN require a careful location of multiple tee locations to bring tee shots to the widest range of golfers?

[mike_beene]

Is Spectacles just PN on a different scale? Thinking 14 at Carnoustie. Also, if you are doing them don't stick in middle of rough. Mow fairway all around. No bunkers sitting in rough please.

[Tom_Doak]

A slight divergence, but how would folks feel about a PN type and size feature but with water not sand in it?
Atb

There is already a name for that.


It's a bird bath.

[Paul Rudovsky]

I think one not yet mentioned is on Somerset Hills' 13th hole.  Only PN built by Tillie (assuming it was part of the original design) that I can think of.


Clearly PN's are a wonderful "hazard" in today's world with wide fairways...they are too penal with the narrow fairways of the "dark ages". And fairways bunkers placed in the middle of fairways that are not shaped like PN's also work...Shelter Harbor in RI is an outstanding Hurzan/Fry design that is loaded with hazards (plain bunkers, PN's, rock outcroppings, etc) in the middle (or slightly toward the left or right side) of fairways.  Really effective way to make the player think about their alternatives/options.

[Thomas Dai]

A slight divergence, but how would folks feel about a PN type and size feature but with water not sand in it?
Atb

There is already a name for that.
It's a bird bath.

... with fountain?


What about a version with small mounds with longish grass on them, ie 'Don Kings'? Smack bang in the middle of the fairway on the ideal line.
atb

[Tommy Williamsen]

The Principal's Nose on the 10th at Dormie is a great visual example that take a backseat to the vast natural area that must be carried to reach it.

It is also a great example of a second shot PN.

[Niall C]

Is Spectacles just PN on a different scale? Thinking 14 at Carnoustie. Also, if you are doing them don't stick in middle of rough. Mow fairway all around. No bunkers sitting in rough please.

Mike


I've got to think not. Spectacles is very much a cross bunker whereas PN creates a pinch point and in doing so dares the player to hit into the pinch point to get the best line with the next.


Niall

[Joel Rudolph]

Two modern examples: Cabot Cliffs #2 - Coore called it a “bulbous nose”. The wide fairway of #2 may draw first timers to the middle, but you quickly learn to choose the best angle, left or right, as the fairway expands into a Y and unveils the optimal angle(s) in.

Schoolhouse 9  #3 - an interesting par 3 example where the PN obscures the right side of the green and plays with your perception of the distance.

[Stewart Abramson]

Two modern examples: Cabot Cliffs #2 - Coore called it a “bulbous nose”. The wide fairway of #2 may draw first timers to the middle, but you quickly learn to choose the best angle, left or right, as the fairway expands into a Y and unveils the optimal angle(s) in.

Cabot Cliffs #2 from white tee Principal's bulbous nose & moustache rough



principal's bulbous nose & moustache

[David_Elvins]

Thomson and Wolveridge used to haphazardly copy link features and the principles nose is one of those. 


The 8th hole at hope island is a particular example where a drive into the narrow fairway right of the bunkers leaves one stuck behind trees.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Two modern examples: Cabot Cliffs #2 - Coore called it a “bulbous nose”. The wide fairway of #2 may draw first timers to the middle, but you quickly learn to choose the best angle, left or right, as the fairway expands into a Y and unveils the optimal angle(s) in.

Cabot Cliffs #2 from white tee Principal's bulbous nose & moustache rough

I sure don't want to be in or even short of this bunker. Looks a bit too penal.

[mike_beene]

Reminds me of that creepy face on Mars.

[Sean_A]

Is the Cabot Cliffs example really a PN? I thought the main point of a PN is the 4 options. This example is really penal in nature rather than strategic.

Ciao

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