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Kyle Harris

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2020, 01:32:13 PM »
P.S. to Mike:  I had never really gone through all of my routings before to explore this.  Thanks for bringing up the topic.


Also:  WHY do so many of the courses in Philadelphia do this?  I can probably figure that out myself, but I'm busy today!


When done, it seems to be a Flynn thing.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2020, 03:21:34 PM »
I think it's often invention mothered by necessity.

It sure comes in handy as a vehicle to get out of tight spots in a routing (i.e. the area between the train tracks and Golf House Road on below the clubhouse at Merion), and I've also seen it best utilized to do a switcheroo in terms of backtracking around other holes in a change of direction.


Also to provide a change of pace and more variety/mix of holes within the routing.


I am pretty sure that you were at an outing where we played our first round at one of two private courses before the featured resort course (I was the one whose Apex irons Mr. Dye lavished over).  A heavy rain hit right after our round concluded while we were having drinks.  Everyone I talked to during the social hour raved about the course.  Several of us planned to go back out after the rain to play a few more holes.


That's when our fearless leader called for an impromptu "training" session and we all gathered in a circle around him.  Naturally, he did the "training" which, surprisingly because there were a couple folks from the host course still around, it turned out to be a recitation of everything that he thought was wrong with the course.  As I recall, I was the only one who spoke of the course's virtues, and out of the half-dozen or so players who planned to go back out, I was the only one to do so.


Our mentor's biggest objection and the only one I thought had any merit was what is being discussed in this thread.  We rode that day and he was bothered that we passed on the way to the next tee a couple greens and some tees that we had already played or would later in the round.   This didn't make a big impression on me and it didn't impact my evaluation of the course or enjoyment of the round.  I've played the course three or four times since, each time walking with a caddie, and it is a pleasant walk.


Whatever disadvantages are created by this type of routing should be considered along with the advantages.  I thought that the routing of the course as a whole was excellent from the standpoint of mixing up the holes and changing directions.  The gaps between greens and tees were not excessive and I personally prefer wide views of the course than perfectly isolated hole corridors.


From my estimation, the subject course was at least a half-point better than its sister.  But I knew from the training session and the subsequent discussions that it would be rated lower.  And for a long time it has been in this magazine, but not in the competition's.  Whether this was the result of parroting the leader or a "crossover" issue, I can only surmise.     

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2020, 03:42:14 PM »
Lou,


Yes, I was there and actually enjoyed three of the four courses a great deal.  I wasn't quite as enamored with the Nicklaus course which I believe is where we met Mr. Dye and if memory serves we all accounted for ourselves pretty well considering the pressure of playing the last hole or two under his gaze.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2020, 04:16:14 PM »

Our mentor's biggest objection and the only one I thought had any merit was what is being discussed in this thread.  We rode that day and he was bothered that we passed on the way to the next tee a couple greens and some tees that we had already played or would later in the round.   This didn't make a big impression on me and it didn't impact my evaluation of the course or my enjoyment of the round


Do I remain the only one confused or are we all still talking at cross-purposes?


Is the thread about physically crossing a playing corridor to get from one green to the next tee (unusual)? Or are we also talking about crossing behind greens and tees (very common)?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2020, 04:46:24 PM »
Mike, I felt the same way about the Nicklaus course which we played with Mike Vegis (may he rest in peace) and Dr. Childs as an added second 18 one day.  Pretty mundane I thought.  What Mr. Dye was doing there beats me.


Do you recall the course and my discussion involving the crossover?   Do your recollections differ?  Am I on topic?


Ally,


Far for me to guess what Mr. Malone was writing about, but I was under the impression that it included walking/carting around other greens or tees to get to the next hole.  The only course I remember that shared playing space for two holes is TOC.


The one that Mike Beene writes about, Northwood in Dallas, allows walking or carting across the #1 fairway as a shortcut to the 16th tee or following the cart path around #1 green.  The routing, IMO, is awkward, but it was made necessary by the paving of what was once a dirt road bisecting the site with two tunnels to get back and forth.  To balance the nines, the road is crossed four times, with some walkbacks involved.  In the case of Northwood, I do believe that the routing detracts from what is otherwise a fine course (U.S. Open venue in 1952).

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2020, 04:47:20 PM »
Do I remain the only one confused or are we all still talking at cross-purposes?
Is the thread about physically crossing a playing corridor to get from one green to the next tee (unusual)? Or are we also talking about crossing behind greens and tees (very common)?
+1
 ???
Atb

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2020, 05:52:03 PM »
Do I remain the only one confused or are we all still talking at cross-purposes?
Is the thread about physically crossing a playing corridor to get from one green to the next tee (unusual)? Or are we also talking about crossing behind greens and tees (very common)?
+1
 ???
Atb


I assumed it must be the former, precisely because the latter is so common.


The one that comes to mind is from the 5th green to the 6th tee at Brancaster, where you walk straight across the 7th fairway.  I was convinced someone must have moved the ‘next tee’ signs around when I first played it.  Does anyone know if it’s part of the original routing?  It certainly didn’t feel like it to me.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2020, 06:14:22 PM »
0
Do I remain the only one confused or are we all still talking at cross-purposes?
Is the thread about physically crossing a playing corridor to get from one green to the next tee (unusual)? Or are we also talking about crossing behind greens and tees (very common)?
+1
 ???
Atb

I assumed it must be the former, precisely because the latter is so common.

The one that comes to mind is from the 5th green to the 6th tee at Brancaster, where you walk straight across the 7th fairway.  I was convinced someone must have moved the ‘next tee’ signs around when I first played it.  Does anyone know if it’s part of the original routing?  It certainly didn’t feel like it to me.

No, that isn't the original routing. It's quite awkward, not as bad as at Merion, but bad.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 04:23:00 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2020, 06:31:15 PM »
Sorry to confuse you Ally. At Rolling Green you leave the 8th green and traverse between the member tees and the forward tees of 12  to the member tees of 9. It intrigues me that Flynn has parallel holes 11 heading east 9 west 12 west 8 east.


Lehigh which is another Flynn has you go from 1 green behind 18 tee and 17 green to 2 tee so again there are four holes parallel but two for each nine.


I hope that clears up my definition of a crossover.
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2020, 07:44:12 PM »

Do I remain the only one confused or are we all still talking at cross-purposes?

Is the thread about physically crossing a playing corridor to get from one green to the next tee (unusual)? Or are we also talking about crossing behind greens and tees (very common)?


Ally:


For me, a "crossover" in the routing is anywhere that player traffic from one hole to the next crosses traffic earlier/later in the round.  In your former case there are very few examples, but what I describe is not really as common as you say.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2020, 07:49:06 PM »

The one that comes to mind is from the 5th green to the 6th tee at Brancaster, where you walk straight across the 7th fairway.  I was convinced someone must have moved the ‘next tee’ signs around when I first played it.  Does anyone know if it’s part of the original routing?  It certainly didn’t feel like it to me.


I do not have a club history book for Brancaster, but I am almost positive I know how this happened.


Originally, one of the first three holes [likely #3] was two shorter holes, and #6 did not exist.


By combining the two together, adding #6, and moving the tee back on #7, they gained +/- 350 yards on the scorecard by building just one new par-3 hole on some wasted ground at the edge of the marsh.  To me, that's genius, all because they were willing to break convention and walk across a fairway to get to the next tee.


The little retrograde loop would be confusing to first-time visitors, not that the club cares about that, but in practice the timing seems to work very well . . . you cross #7 fairway while the group in front is on #6 green, and then you hit to #6 while they move to the tee on #7 and hit back past you.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2020, 08:32:18 PM »
Lou,


If my fading memory serves, the critic's point was that the crossover was to get more holes along the waterway for scenic purposes in the closing stretch but I may be wrong.  I do recall you and I and probably others enjoyed the course a great deal and I remember you speaking up during our group meeting afterwards.


I believe Mr. Dye was at the Nicklaus course because he was our guest speaker that night. It was one of the thrills of my life to make his acquaintance. 


Hope all is well.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2020, 03:08:38 AM »

Do I remain the only one confused or are we all still talking at cross-purposes?

Is the thread about physically crossing a playing corridor to get from one green to the next tee (unusual)? Or are we also talking about crossing behind greens and tees (very common)?


Ally:


For me, a "crossover" in the routing is anywhere that player traffic from one hole to the next crosses traffic earlier/later in the round.  In your former case there are very few examples, but what I describe is not really as common as you say.


I don’t know Tom - it seems like you crossover on a lot of your courses. It is so common that it is hardly worth talking about.


As a general rule, I think when designing in a crossover, a lot of care has to be taken to make the walk / flow feel natural. The primary aim is that the golfer is not confused, stopped in his stride and found exclaiming “where do I go next?”. Once that is achieved, then these kind of crossovers can very often open up excellent routing solutions.


The former definition has few examples but perhaps more than we realise and as I already stated, some excellent courses such as Pulborough, Alwoodley & St.Enodoc have instances where you have to walk across a fairway to get to the next tee.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2020, 06:24:26 AM »
No mention of North Berwick West?3rd green to 4th tee, 14th green to 5th tee.It enables the figure 8 routing.
Alwoodley is another of my favourites, but with a double 8 routing.1 and 2 on one side of the property, 3, 4, 5, 6 on the other.7 drops you back on the other side followed by 8, 9 and 10 before returning with 11, 12 and 13.  14 switches to the other side of the property for 15, then 16 switches you back to finish on 17 and 18.
Alwoodley's routing makes North Berwick West seem simple.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2020, 09:49:06 AM »
Now that I know it doesn't just mean holes that actually play across another hole then there is also Cruden Bay and probably quite few more.


Kyle


Thanks for explaining, as I say a new one on me.


Niall

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2020, 10:31:52 AM »
North Berwick and Alwoodley are both excellent examples.

In each case they somehow manage to make the crossover walk one of thrilling anticipation for what's ahead.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/