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mike_malone

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The crossover is worth discussing.
« on: May 27, 2020, 09:14:20 PM »
 Flynn does it at Rolling Green crossing over 12 going from 8 to 9 and at Lehigh which goes from 1 over 18 and 17 to 2.  Lancaster 1 crosses 9 to 2. Lehigh has one on the back that crosses 11 I believe.


 The connector hole got me thinking of this other way to route a course.


 Other examples?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 10:19:40 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

mike_beene

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2020, 12:00:35 AM »
Do you mean 13 to 14 over 1 at Merion or 15 to 16 over 1 at Northwood. Or 11 and 7 at Old Course, which is different?

Matthew Rose

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2020, 02:00:32 AM »
I was wondering that too - is this about two holes where the lines of play actually cross over each other?

American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

mike_malone

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2020, 05:29:58 AM »
 You walk from a green to the next tee by crossing over another hole. Merion 13 to 14 would be an example.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 05:32:05 AM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Sean_A

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2020, 05:54:26 AM »
You walk from a green to the next tee by crossing over another hole. Merion 13 to 14 would be an example.

The Merion 13 to 14 crossover is probably the weakest part of the routing...its very awkward.  I don't mind crossing over 6(?) tee to play 5.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 07:16:39 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kyle Harris

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2020, 06:11:44 AM »
Mike,


It is so prevalent in the Philly area that John Lyon took to calling it a "Pennsylvania Routing" when it does this. I can't think of a Ross course which does as his nines generally lay side-by-side.

The curious bit of the routing in the "glove" of Streamsong Black has crossovers from 12-13 (crossing 16) and then from 15 to 16 (crossing behind 13).

How much negative space is required for it to not be a crossover? I'm on a rather harsh record of pillorying the routing of World Woods Pine Barrens because it crosses over the same negative space 4 times in the routing.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Niall C

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2020, 07:03:24 AM »
Kyle

Negative space ? That's a new one on me. What do you mean by that ?

Niall

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2020, 07:03:31 AM »
There are a good few examples in GB&I.


One of my favourite courses is Pulborough/ West Sussex that crosses directly over 7 in moving from 16 green to 17 tees.

Sean_A

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2020, 07:24:28 AM »
Alwoodley has a very clever crossover from 13 to 14 the 7th is crossed.  This may be the lynchpin of the routing because this section of the property is quite narrow, but big enough to support two short holes....with the crossover.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2020, 08:03:18 AM »
Re Alwoodley - does the 3rd not also play across another fairway ? And IIRC it is close to the hitting area on the right of the hole that is being crossed. MacKenzie also did something similar at Pitreavie. It seems to me that Mac always wanted to wring as much out of a natural feature as he could but in doing so he was happy to compromise safety which is perhaps surprising in a doctor.

Certainly I think there is nothing wrong with crossovers where they can be properly managed and might provide a neat solution for a routing.

Niall

Sean_A

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2020, 08:20:22 AM »
Re Alwoodley - does the 3rd not also play across another fairway ? And IIRC it is close to the hitting area on the right of the hole that is being crossed. MacKenzie also did something similar at Pitreavie. It seems to me that Mac always wanted to wring as much out of a natural feature as he could but in doing so he was happy to compromise safety which is perhaps surprising in a doctor.

Certainly I think there is nothing wrong with crossovers where they can be properly managed and might provide a neat solution for a routing.

Niall

Yes, that's an actual playing crossover rather than walking crossover.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adam Clayman

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2020, 08:59:21 AM »



Interlachen is noteworthy on this subject. Theirs is one of the coolest I've experienced.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rob Marshall

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2020, 09:34:30 AM »
Aronimink crosses the 11th when going from 8th green to 9th tee if you were to walk a straight line.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2020, 09:38:38 AM »
Indeed, this is talked about thoroughly in Getting to 18, in the chapter on Pacific Dunes.  Crossovers are hard to pull off, because finding two greens and two tee positions close enough together to do it seamlessly is difficult.


Pacific Dunes makes two crossovers:  3-4-12-13, and 4-5-11-12.  That was the key to having holes run along the coastline both north and south, but using the coastline in the best way possible.  [10 and 13 were far better playing to the north, and 4 is far better playing to the south.]


It took me six months to figure out that was important to do, and then a little bit longer to find a way to make it work.  For Pacific, the last piece was finding the green site for #3, which was inaccessible because of gorse until the fire.  [Previously, the routing had played from #3 tee to #12 green site.]


It's a decently long walk from 3 green to 4 tee, broken up by the halfway house, but also by the beautiful oceanfront view along the way.  It's also a decently long walk from 11 green to 12 tee, only because we can't trust golfers not to play down #4.  [When I play Pacific Dunes I usually just tee off for #12 from the back of #5 tee -- the hole is just as good if not better, as long as everyone agrees not to go down #4.]  But those two walks were what made everything else fit together just right.




Most oceanfront courses cross over once, so that you have the water frontage on the right for one nine, and on the left for the other nine [as Pebble Beach does, at 3-4-16-17].  Most modern courses [a la Casa de Campo] hide the crossover at the turn so you don't notice it [and so you'll forgive the longer green to tee transition].  Whistling Straits has a crossover within each nine as well as at the turn, which Mr. Dye could make happen because he re-graded the whole site, instead of having to deal with natural green sites.




You often find good green sites close together, but unless there is a compelling reason to make the crossover, it's generally smoother not to.  So, not that many of my courses have crossovers:


Do Cross Over:
Stonewall Old [10-11-17-18]
Stonewall North [10-11-17-18  :D , at the road - never noticed it's the same!]
Lost Dunes [sort of, as you go through the tunnel from 7 to 8]
Barnbougle Dunes [at the turn]
Sebonack [3-4-9-10 and 10-11-16-17]
Dismal River [at the turn]
Tara Iti [off the 3rd & 5th tees, and at the turn]
St. Emilion [1-2-17-18 hidden by road crossing, also 14-15-16-17]
Streamsong Blue [crosses the Red course twice, but does not cross itself!]


Don't Cross Over:  High Pointe, Cape Kidnappers, St. Andrews Beach [which intermingles with other holes but never actually does a crossover - I had to think about it], Stone Eagle, Ballyneal, Old Macdonald, Rock Creek, National (Gunnamatta)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 09:42:05 AM by Tom_Doak »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2020, 09:41:09 AM »
P.S. to Mike:  I had never really gone through all of my routings before to explore this.  Thanks for bringing up the topic.


Also:  WHY do so many of the courses in Philadelphia do this?  I can probably figure that out myself, but I'm busy today!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2020, 09:45:06 AM »
Tom,


I would guess a good 50% of courses have the type of crossover you are talking about.


I think this thread is about the far less desirable crossing directly over a fairway to get from one green to the next tee.


There are some great courses that manage this very well (hardly any modern) though it is clearly not an ideal solution and should only be used as a routing answer if it unlocks significant benefits.

JESII

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2020, 09:59:08 AM »
I don't know Ally...the Rolling Green example happens at the tee. Not sure about Lehigh. Merion 13-14 is just off the front of the 1st tee.


Shinnecock does this at 3 to 4 going over to the 4-6 triangle then back across.


Are there any that do this well in the body of a hole?

MCirba

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2020, 10:17:01 AM »
The original routing of Cobb's Creek had golfers crossing in front of the 9th tee to get from the 11th green to the 12th tee. 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2020, 10:41:13 AM »

I have done them. (I'm sure, but don't have time to scrounge through routings.) They are sometimes because of the needed number of holes to get each nine to the clubhouse, sometimes done to balance par or yardage better after the holes have been determined, and very often, done by the first club pro.....they are always interested in reversing 9's, but I have seen some who like to fiddle with the hole order in that way.


I have seen one of my courses temporarily re-numbered for senior PGA Tour event in the name of traffic flow, which resulted in back to back par 3 holes.  If that was done on a muni, pace of play might be affected!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_malone

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2020, 11:38:08 AM »
 Maybe a higher level of thinking is to do it over another nine of the course like Lehigh going 1 past 18 tee and 17 green to 2 tee. It helps in intertwined nines.
AKA Mayday

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2020, 12:05:13 PM »

Mike,


Not sure what you mean by higher level of thinking?


Designers gradually moved away from crossovers for a variety of safety, circulation, golfer confusion (more public courses = more first time players) and speed of play issues.  In absence of a actual site condition, they theoretically don't make sense in the big scheme of things in the modern world.  I don't see it as being worth purposely putting in a routing, just because it seems quirky or cool.


That said, the desire for the things I mentioned in my first post - and might have added considering sun orientation at the place of the round - not to mention finding the best holes often over ride that general theory.


I would guess the total % of courses having these is less than Ally's guess of 50%, at least in the USA.  Could be wrong.  Of course, maybe I just need to go play every course that is left in the US to be sure...….I know Mike Cirba is over 500 courses, maybe he can provide a better guess before I get around to that?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Nate Oxman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2020, 12:45:20 PM »
You walk from a green to the next tee by crossing over another hole. Merion 13 to 14 would be an example.

The Merion 13 to 14 crossover is probably the weakest part of the routing...its very awkward.  I don't mind crossing over 6(?) tee to play 5.

Ciao


I respectfully disagree. Regardless of intention, I think the crossover from 1 to 14 is great because it allows those crossing over to potentially have a quick chat with those walking up 1, maybe a hint about what's to come like an interesting pin location for example, maybe a quick anecdote from the journey thus far, or the status of a match if those passing each other are friends.


More importantly, the crossover provides a pretty cool pathway to five of the finest finishing holes in golf (right?), especially for those first-time visitors who have only seen images or flyovers or whatever of these holes. The visual isn't necessarily there yet. That really comes on the 15th tee as you look back down 14 to the clubhouse, over to the quarry on 16, and get glimpses of 17 and 18. But many sense that some special golf holes are coming while crossing over from 13 to 14.


With the current routing, you cross over 6 tee to get to 3 tee.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2020, 12:45:48 PM »
I’m a bit confused here.


The 50% refers to the type of crossover that happens “behind” tees or greens, outside of the direct playing corridor, that enables a switch in routing (such as a figure 8 to allow coast holes to play both on the right and on the left).


Far less than 50% are examples of crossing over playing corridors to get from one hole to the next. These are never desirable unless they have helped to unlock a significant routing advantage that can’t be attained any other way.


Again, it comes down to weighing pros against cons, as does almost every decision in GCA.


(That said, in addition to the Pulborough and Alwoodley examples, I like crossing 9 fairway to get from 15 green to 16 tee at St Enedoc. These are 3 of my favourite courses. One other example is that we had to cross in front of 17 tees to get from 4 green to 5 tees on the Kilmore nine at Carne. We did this because there was literally no other option unless we significantly changed the Hackett 18 which no-one was willing to do. This is one of the reasons that I promoted the Composite course which the club are now putting in to play: It eradicates that crossover... Ulrich called it a routing “flaw”. He was wrong of course. It was a less than perfect outcome from the only routing solution, not a flaw in the routing process.)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 01:11:19 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

MCirba

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2020, 01:08:30 PM »
I think it's often invention mothered by necessity.

It sure comes in handy as a vehicle to get out of tight spots in a routing (i.e. the area between the train tracks and Golf House Road on below the clubhouse at Merion), and I've also seen it best utilized to do a switcheroo in terms of backtracking around other holes in a change of direction.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kyle Harris

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Re: The crossover is worth discussing.
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2020, 01:25:25 PM »
Kyle

Negative space ? That's a new one on me. What do you mean by that ?

Niall


Space within a course through which golf is not meant to be played. A long green-to-tee walk in this case but could also represent a large separation between fairways. I think the use of negative space in this regard is one of the key elements to evaluating a routing.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 01:27:45 PM by Kyle Harris »
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.