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William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #100 on: May 27, 2020, 11:38:02 PM »
common sense is applicable to every game and rules are only needed for uncivilized folks


research that MFFRS  ;D
It's all about the golf!

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2020, 10:10:58 AM »
As an inveterate walker, I find the characterization as someone who doesn't use a rake to be as inaccurate a generalization as saying cart riders don't rake.  Let's keep it real here.


This isn't about being too lazy, busy, or rushed to rake; it's about smoothing obvious footprints in a hazard through other means less fussy than one might tend their decorative backyard zen garden.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #102 on: May 28, 2020, 10:18:06 AM »
Last night was I hitting balls from our practice bunker. I tried smoothing my footprints with my foot as I backed out. It takes much longer than using a rake if were talking about playing time. Much longer. It's certainly not perfect but playable.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #103 on: May 28, 2020, 10:26:17 AM »
Last night was I hitting balls from our practice bunker. I tried smoothing my footprints with my foot as I backed out. It takes much longer than using a rake if were talking about playing time. Much longer. It's certainly not perfect but playable.


It absolutely takes longer especially if you are going to catch all the footprints on the walk in and out.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #104 on: May 28, 2020, 10:27:28 AM »
As an inveterate walker, I find the characterization as someone who doesn't use a rake to be as inaccurate a generalization as saying cart riders don't rake.  Let's keep it real here.


This isn't about being too lazy, busy, or rushed to rake; it's about smoothing obvious footprints in a hazard through other means less fussy than one might tend their decorative backyard zen garden.

Ha!  Zen garden, that's good.  Let's suppose the Rake Snatchers have their way . . . what does that mean for bunkers going forward?  Don't the latest favorite methods require, for warranty or otherwise, very deep, soft sand?  The foot rake works fine on the coarser, firmer sand in our Dark Ages bunkers, but in our single brand new "Better" bunker it's impossible.  I'm not sure if that's just because it hasn't settled yet or whether they are always like that.  Without rakes, that one's been a complete mess.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 10:31:50 AM by Bernie Bell »

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #105 on: May 28, 2020, 03:24:00 PM »
You know, I wonder if the "Rake Snatchers" are going to be the problem.


Assuming the rakes come back, and our knowledge of CV 19 doesn't change...that it's possible to get it from a surface recently touched by someone carrying the virus.  (Personally, I doubt that's going to be the case, and the recent backtracking by CDC was nothing more than CYA)


But if it is true, how many golfers will refuse to touch a rake? Never mind removing them.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #106 on: May 28, 2020, 03:36:54 PM »
Last night was I hitting balls from our practice bunker. I tried smoothing my footprints with my foot as I backed out. It takes much longer than using a rake if were talking about playing time. Much longer. It's certainly not perfect but playable.


Rob,


I have to give you credit for having an open mind and trying this.  Thanks.


Tim,


Even with rakes I try as a habit to walk in and back out retracing my steps. 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #107 on: May 28, 2020, 04:57:54 PM »
Bunkers were described in a recent Podcast as “sand gardens”, which fits in nicely with Mike C’s comment above.
Atb


PS - in times gone by “Rake” had another meaning.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #108 on: May 29, 2020, 01:38:27 PM »

One of the impediments for new people coming to the game is how difficult it is.  With the average handicap just south of 18, do we really want to make golf harder?



Lou, I feel certain that if bunkers were less well tended, you would be among the first to adapt and give them their due.  No way it would cost you two shots a round, except maybe at places like Winged Foot with greens pinched by bunkers on every hole.


Aren't you usually in favor of keeping the game difficult and not pandering to weaker players?  Why the concern trolling here?  It's the same with John Kavanaugh, the tune suddenly changes when a change is proposed that would require a change to your own approach.


I do understand that this discussion is purely hypothetical.  We didn't put bunkers out at Barnbougle when it opened and that experiment lasted maybe a month -- and only because it took that long to get rakes to Tasmania once the complaints started!


I have watched clubs where I consult spend ridiculous amounts of money putting perfect sand in the bunkers to make them play easier and "reduce maintenance costs" [while they spend 5-10x as much on bunker maintenance now as they did 20 years ago].  Luckily it helps to keep my employees well fed and hopefully able to send their kids to college, but it would be nice if we were making those courses more interesting, instead.


The issue, I think, is making the present C-19 motivated bunker maintenance practices permanent.  From my standpoint, the variety of bunker construction, sand, and normal maintenance practices is so great that what might work at one place relatively well (shallow bunkers with firm sand and an attentive player base) would change the game considerably elsewhere.


For example, my home course has over 50 large, mostly deep bunkers with few shallow entry points and filled with large varieties and quantities of cheap sand.  I think that the bunkers are presently raked by machine once a week, and perhaps spot raked manually another time.  It is nearly impossible to foot or club rake with adequate results.


As an experiment on Wednesday I played all bunker shots as the ball lied.  I was in five green-side bunkers from which I took seven strokes to get out (twice it took two shots).  I got it up and down once.  I hit one fairways bunker where in trying to dig the ball out, it ended up near a creek with an impossible pitch to the green (into a green-side bunker where it took two sand shots to get on the green- my second ending 3' from the hole as my sole up and down).


Yes, I would learn to adapt, but if I, a self-proclaimed reasonably good bunker player has such problems, how much fun can a 15 have with C-19 bunker maintenance?  I find it odd that some folks believe that tougher lies make it harder for the good player and to a lesser degree for the high handicapper.


Funny that you mention Winged Foot.  Many years ago I played Bethpage Black from the accessible back tees one afternoon and but for the last hole I would have broken 80.  Next morning we went off the West at WF, second set of tees, hit the ball reasonably well and didn't break 90.  Had a hard time reconciling that both courses were designed by the same architect (and I do know of the controversy about who really designed Bethpage).


No, I am not a proponent of designing golf courses that only the top 1% can play.  Though I don't think that a course can serve the needs or desires of all players, I do believe that it is an aspirational goal.  I do enjoy playing a demanding course like the Black.


I would go back to WF where I do have some access, but would much prefer playing Friar's Head and Fishers where I don't.  Both times I've been to Bethpage it was a zoo with near fights breaking out between guys from the walk up list in my groups, once with the starter, the second time on the Red with a group of detectives and police in front of us who took exception to the young man asking them if we could play through.  I don't think I've been to NY since!


My position on what people choose to do with their money is different than yours.  What constitutes interest to you is probably similar to mine, but I suspect not reflective of the mainstream of golfers.  I do think that more clubs are cognizant of maintenance costs, but if they have the type of clientele with the expectation and willingness to pay for a different level of conditioning, who am I to object?  Do you not believe that the Augusta National Syndrome is highly exaggerated?  The vast majority of the clubs I visit- 40 to 50 in some years- don't even try to pretend.  Despite efforts by the USGA and the magazines, irrigation and possibly drainage appear to be bigger problems than expensive bunker liner systems and sand (for which there are good data supporting the economic value).

Having been introduced to golf on mom-and-pop rudimentary courses with no bunkers, I was blown away with the bunkering at the OSU's courses.  They were not MacKenzian in style, but the impression was made.  I appreciate great bunkers even or maybe especially on parkland courses.  It does not usually take great effort or time to return the lie and disturbed area to an acceptable condition with a relatively inexpensive rake.  I don't see this as an issue of consequence to the game.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #109 on: May 30, 2020, 06:39:17 PM »
Played Crystal Downs again today - drove into the bunker to the right of #1 - never saw another all day.  (And it wasn't because I played particularly well.)

Mark Mammel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #110 on: May 30, 2020, 07:01:03 PM »
You know, with unmaintained bunkers I think it is more than reasonable to put the ball in a hittable lie in the bunker. Most handicap players have enough trouble with a bunker in good condition, much less one that is very rough. Of course it's better to stay out of them. It's better to hit it straight, find the green and make the putts. I believe rakes will be back, and as the evidence suggests that acquisition of COVID-19 from surfaces is unlikely to contribute much (if at all) to spread, we will find a way to feel safe using them. Use your towel to hold the rake?
Nice job Tom.
So much golf to play, so little time....

Mark

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #111 on: May 30, 2020, 10:48:00 PM »
Golf is a better game without rakes. As a greenkeeper, the amount of time JUST allocated toward arranging the rakes logically around bunkers is absurd. This must be done daily, as you'll roll up the next morning to observe the golfers handiwork and see a rake flung 25 yards from the bunker it belongs to, one bunker with zero rakes and an adjacent bunker with 12, rakes artfully placed on steep bunker noses that are not walkable, rakes in the trap when they should be out, rakes out of the trap when they should be in, rakes on the high side when they should be on the low, and calls from the pro shop that there are never enough rakes even though there are hundreds out there.


The verdict is in. Golfers can't handle the rakes. We learned as children that when you can't put your toys away nicely, you get your toys taken away altogether. Sadly this is due to a pandemic, and sadly, the rakes will return. But I think that it's a better game without them, especially with firm sand that doesn't allow for the high softy and the requisite hoof prints.

Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #112 on: May 31, 2020, 03:15:29 AM »
Bunkers are now sand gardens, not hazards or obstacles best avoided.
Golf has gone soft.
Might as well fill in all bunkers and mow the grass short. And fill in all ponds, pipe any streams and flatten any humps and hollows. Still use 14 high tech clubs though and a high tech golf ball that goes and goes and goes. Put up high walls around courses as well, can't have the pesky wind influence play. And install high roofs over courses too, can't have any rain or sun influence play. And under the roof install a heating and or air conditioning system. Have a heated and or air conditioned parking lot too.
What next part III ... before teeing off, in any halfway house and after play, golfers will sit in high chairs and eat pureed food spoon fed to them by their Mums and Grannies and drink from cups with two handles and lids with a narrow gap.
sic :):):)
atb

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #113 on: May 31, 2020, 05:24:39 AM »
Would it be possible to give every golfer a small container of hand sanitizer to use after touching a rake or anything else that might transmit covid?
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #114 on: June 01, 2020, 12:23:20 AM »
How much less of an issue would this be if it wasn't for the obsession with really soft, deep sand?  It may look good but give me a firm, course, gritty sand in bunkers every day.



Much/most of this obsession is driven by aggregate companies wanting to sell expensive products to golf clubs in order to boost profits which has little to do with the good of the game. The other big influence is of course the professional tours where the reason for deep fluffy sand is it is easier to play from.


As for the average golfer, they struggle to play from sand whether it is soft and fluffy or firm and gritty. That it is raked or not is also not relevant to the difficulty of all but the low handicap player. It is often forgotten that the reason bunkers were originally raked once or twice a week was to help prevent weed infestation and help drainage. It had nothing to do with playing characteristics.


Jon

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #115 on: June 01, 2020, 09:37:03 AM »
Tom Bacsanyi and Thomas Dai for the win!   ;D

Lord, we've become a fussy bunch.

Here's my view of perfection in a hazard, so we have a visual aid. (taken yesterday)


"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #116 on: June 01, 2020, 06:54:10 PM »
Great photo. There is no lie in that bunker that a bad bunker player would struggle with appreciably more than if the lie was raked perfectly smooth.


What’s ironic to me about this debate is that we have packed tee sheets all over the world despite rakes being removed at most courses. If not a single person would quit golf because of vanished rakes, why again do we need them?
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #117 on: June 01, 2020, 07:36:36 PM »
Rakes are toast. Self serve free food has also seen it's last days. Sad.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #118 on: June 01, 2020, 07:44:16 PM »
Rakes are toast. Self serve free food has also seen it's last days. Sad.


I enjoyed taking comfort from comfort stations. :'(
« Last Edit: June 01, 2020, 07:50:35 PM by Tim Martin »

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #119 on: June 02, 2020, 08:42:22 AM »
Great photo. There is no lie in that bunker that a bad bunker player would struggle with appreciably more than if the lie was raked perfectly smooth.


What’s ironic to me about this debate is that we have packed tee sheets all over the world despite rakes being removed at most courses. If not a single person would quit golf because of vanished rakes, why again do we need them?
Mark,

The golf course was packed on a beautiful Sunday morning and hope sprang eternal that hazards could once again be places of fear, avoidance, and due penance.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #120 on: June 02, 2020, 10:58:37 AM »
Great photo. There is no lie in that bunker that a bad bunker player would struggle with appreciably more than if the lie was raked perfectly smooth.


What’s ironic to me about this debate is that we have packed tee sheets all over the world despite rakes being removed at most courses. If not a single person would quit golf because of vanished rakes, why again do we need them?


Oh, people may quit. Just others will fill their place.

What I don't understand is how is it such a problem to walk into/out of a bunker gently enough to not make a footprint needing repair? Even the softest sand can be walked through with minimal impact.

Are you guys THAT nonathletic!?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #121 on: June 02, 2020, 11:45:41 AM »
Great photo. There is no lie in that bunker that a bad bunker player would struggle with appreciably more than if the lie was raked perfectly smooth.


What’s ironic to me about this debate is that we have packed tee sheets all over the world despite rakes being removed at most courses. If not a single person would quit golf because of vanished rakes, why again do we need them?


Oh, people may quit. Just others will fill their place.

What I don't understand is how is it such a problem to walk into/out of a bunker gently enough to not make a footprint needing repair? Even the softest sand can be walked through with minimal impact.

Are you guys THAT nonathletic!?


There are a fair amount of flash faced bunkers that can be tough to maneuver around in and that’s why you occasionally find stairs as an assist. Your entry/exit strategy is just as important as your wedge technique. ;)

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #122 on: June 02, 2020, 11:56:41 AM »
Great photo. There is no lie in that bunker that a bad bunker player would struggle with appreciably more than if the lie was raked perfectly smooth.


What’s ironic to me about this debate is that we have packed tee sheets all over the world despite rakes being removed at most courses. If not a single person would quit golf because of vanished rakes, why again do we need them?


Oh, people may quit. Just others will fill their place.

What I don't understand is how is it such a problem to walk into/out of a bunker gently enough to not make a footprint needing repair? Even the softest sand can be walked through with minimal impact.

Are you guys THAT nonathletic!?


Apparently you have never been in the front left bunker on Number 5 Streamsong Blue. I needed the caddie to pull me out.....
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 01:08:34 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #123 on: June 02, 2020, 12:08:44 PM »
Gravity doesn't look for rakes. Every superintendent should let me walk across the roof of his car before he questions the destruction my feet can do.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers sans Rakes
« Reply #124 on: June 02, 2020, 04:47:18 PM »
Gravity doesn't look for rakes. Every superintendent should let me walk across the roof of his car before he questions the destruction my feet can do.


Go for it. You have to climb up there first, though.


Rob Marshall,


Not sure when you played it but those bunkers have always been accessible from one side or the other. Now they have stair cases, too, and have for years. If a caddy needed to pull you out, it sounds like you walked up the face... which... why?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.