[Bernie Bell]

So raking bunkers is "unenlightened" now?  It's so hard for me to keep up.  Did Shivas say that?  I never could make it to the end of Golf in the Kingdom.

Don’t know. Never read it. But I’m certainly not going to apologize for thinking that a large portion of the average golf playing public could use some enlightenment when it comes to not expecting perfection and being more open to randomness. It can only have positive effects for the future of the game.

So, in your group, while we're without rakes (which won't be forever), play it as it lies.  In my group, if it's sitting down in a print, you can lift it, swipe it and drop it back where it was.  I don't care, and would be happy to play it either way.  It's hard for me to get too worked up about it, until we start talking about "enlightenment."  I'm more concerned about the effects of woke golf and "my way is the high way" dogmatism than bunker rakes on the future of the game. 

[Tim Martin]

Lots of “local rules” will morph from the current conditions.

[Mark Fedeli]

So raking bunkers is "unenlightened" now?  It's so hard for me to keep up.  Did Shivas say that?  I never could make it to the end of Golf in the Kingdom.

Don’t know. Never read it. But I’m certainly not going to apologize for thinking that a large portion of the average golf playing public could use some enlightenment when it comes to not expecting perfection and being more open to randomness. It can only have positive effects for the future of the game.

So, in your group, while we're without rakes (which won't be forever), play it as it lies.  In my group, if it's sitting down in a print, you can lift it, swipe it and drop it back where it was.  I don't care, and would be happy to play it either way.  It's hard for me to get too worked up about it, until we start talking about "enlightenment."  I'm more concerned about the effects of woke golf and "my way is the high way" than bunker rakes on the future of the game.

I hardly think that golfers opening their minds to a bit more randomness and less consistent conditioning is something you need to be terribly concerned about. But grind your axe on me all you want, friend. I'm happy to stand in for whatever evil you think woke golf is. I'm also happy for your group to play by any rules that you want. In fact, I'd rather golf be filled with groups playing internal games by any rules they agreed upon — far better than the sport obsessing over one set of rules to rule them all.

[Peter Flory]

Plus, how many bunkers are you really in over the course of 18 holes?  Today I was in four, and thought it was much more than normal.  Had one bad lie of the four, and it was in a little leftover rake mark from the morning.

I just played Sand Valley.  I was in 3 bunkers on the first hole... and made par!  But you're right in that over the course of the round I wasn't in that many and didn't get any bad lies that were because of others.  But I have been clearly in the bottom of foot prints a few times this year in casual rounds.  They would have been pure gouge out shots if I played them as they were. 

There is a letter that is displayed at Bob O' Link (I don't remember the year, but it was a long time ago) where they were responding to complaints from members.  The gist of the letter was- we rake the bunkers on Wednesdays and Saturdays, so what the hell are you all complaining about?  i.e. this is best in class course maintenance you spoiled brats. 

I actually think that not maintaining bunkers on a daily basis could be good for the game.  Most people don't play it as it lies anyway and would love an excuse to roll their balls in the sand.  For serious players, it would make sand something to avoid again like it used to be. 

[Thomas Dai]

As mentioned on a few threads before, an optional drop-out with a 1 shot penalty would be fine. Shame the authorities a couple of years ago had to go and regulate it as a 2-shot penalty drop. Hopefully they might one day change this. Fingers crossed but breath not held.
atb

[Sean_A]

So raking bunkers is "unenlightened" now?  It's so hard for me to keep up.  Did Shivas say that?  I never could make it to the end of Golf in the Kingdom.

Don’t know. Never read it. But I’m certainly not going to apologize for thinking that a large portion of the average golf playing public could use some enlightenment when it comes to not expecting perfection and being more open to randomness. It can only have positive effects for the future of the game.

So, in your group, while we're without rakes (which won't be forever), play it as it lies.  In my group, if it's sitting down in a print, you can lift it, swipe it and drop it back where it was.  I don't care, and would be happy to play it either way.  It's hard for me to get too worked up about it, until we start talking about "enlightenment."  I'm more concerned about the effects of woke golf and "my way is the high way" than bunker rakes on the future of the game.

I hardly think that golfers opening their minds to a bit more randomness and less consistent conditioning is something you need to be terribly concerned about. But grind your axe on me all you want, friend. I'm happy to stand in for whatever evil you think woke golf is. I'm also happy for your group to play by any rules that you want. In fact, I'd rather golf be filled with groups playing internal games by any rules they agreed upon — far better than the sport obsessing over one set of rules to rule them all.

Very fine Mark!


Ciao

[MCirba]

Kyle,

Since you mentioned Hugh Wilson's philosophy regarding bunkers, let me repost it here excerpted from my In My Opinion piece on GCA a few years back. 




I have a slightly different interpretation from yours.   I don't think Wilson was arguing for uniform conditioning in bunkers but for bunker shaping that permitted a heroic recovery (as opposed to a steep vertical fronting wall).   I feel confident in that interpretation when one considers that just a few years prior Wilson and Crump's friend Walter Travis railed against the newfangled raking of bunkers that had started in the West (likely Chicago) as having an "emasculating" effect on bunkers. (article courtesy of Anthony Pioppi).   I think these guys expected and encouraged a certain randomness to golf and would have likely been somewhat horrified and shake their heads sadly at the treatment we provide to hazards today.



 

[Mark Fedeli]

In links golf, we find it part of the charm if you have to play backwards, or play into a flatter part of the bunker. How is that different from having to do the same because of the irregularities of un-raked bunkers?


Irregular bunkers also lead to more course strategy. If your bunker game is gash, you should already be trying like hell to avoid them. Less consistent maintenance would make more players do the same, which is the purpose of the bunker in the first place.


Those with bad bunker games might not even suffer. Poor bunker players may do better when they have a bad lie and are just focused on getting the ball out, as opposed to trying to hit some shot of pure professional-level beauty.


Finally, maybe the harshening of bunkers would eventually lead to the return of the bogey score — the score a very good golfer should make on a hole — and bring par back to its original role of representing the 'perfect' score.

[John Kavanaugh]

Or maybe it will just be more help to the long hitter that has wedge into every green.

[Rob Marshall]

So raking bunkers is "unenlightened" now?  It's so hard for me to keep up.  Did Shivas say that?  I never could make it to the end of Golf in the Kingdom.

Don’t know. Never read it. But I’m certainly not going to apologize for thinking that a large portion of the average golf playing public could use some enlightenment when it comes to not expecting perfection and being more open to randomness. It can only have positive effects for the future of the game.

Who said they expect perfection? Raked bunkers are hardly perfection. Not expecting to be in footprints isn't expecting perfection.

[John Kavanaugh]

Unless most architects are complete idiots every bunker designed since 1960 has been built with a reasonable consideration for how it will be maintained. To change the rules now will change the intention of their work. Or maybe architects just build whatever looks good and hope for the best.

[Mark Fedeli]

Raked bunkers are hardly perfection.

Aren't they? Would consistent and well-applied raking not be the equivalent of perfection for a bunker?


I agree that players don't expect a perfect lie every time they're in a bunker — they've largely made their peace with the fried egg and other bad lies caused by the trajectory of their ball. But if their bad lie is due to poor or non-existent raking, they might see it as a fundamental, and perhaps even unfair, error of maintenance.

[John Kavanaugh]

No one hates raking a bunker more than the walk and carry their own bag crowd. If you have a caddie, who cares. If you are in a cart, you can catch up in your cart as you catch your breath behind the wheel. If you are carrying your own bag it's just more work in an already long day.


Is there really anything worse than hitting out of a fairway bunker to a green side bunker knowing that you are going to have to rake both. I can't imagine just finishing the fairway bunker and seeing your playing partners already up by the green. Not to mention us fat drunk cartballers back on the tee praying you will at least make a half ass attempt.

[Mark Fedeli]

Unless most architects are complete idiots every bunker designed since 1960 has been built with a reasonable consideration for how it will be maintained. To change the rules now will change the intention of their work. Or maybe architects just build whatever looks good and hope for the best.

Not sure that fully tracks, John. Have bunkers not gotten less penal and less dramatic overall compared to golden age designs, despite maintenance practices greatly improving? Shouldn't the opposite be true if the architects knew the lies would be much more consistent than in years past?

[John Kavanaugh]

This issue would be less problematic if we had riveted bunkers but we don't. I'm only guessing that an architect would place a bunker and calculate it's depth based on a set of given maintenance expectations. Or maybe that isn't how minimalism works.


Take that famous bunker on the 17th at TPC, please. Where is a guy going to pitch it out sideways?

[Mark Fedeli]

Take that famous bunker on the 17th at TPC, please. Where is a guy going to pitch it out sideways?

Fair point, although the strategic value of that bunker could certainly be argued. If ever there was a bunker that might be purely aesthetic, that one seems like a worthy candidate.

[Rob Marshall]

Raked bunkers are hardly perfection.

Aren't they? Would consistent and well-applied raking not be the equivalent of perfection for a bunker?


I agree that players don't expect a perfect lie every time they're in a bunker — they've largely made their peace with the fried egg and other bad lies caused by the trajectory of their ball. But if their bad lie is due to poor or non-existent raking, they might see it as a fundamental, and perhaps even unfair, error of maintenance.

Is a downhill lie in a consistent and well-applied raked bunker perfection? Fair and challenging yes. Perfection no imo.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

As mentioned on a few threads before, an optional drop-out with a 1 shot penalty would be fine. Shame the authorities a couple of years ago had to go and regulate it as a 2-shot penalty drop. Hopefully they might one day change this.

Why are you against the two-stroke penalty for escaping a bunker?

You already have several one-stroke options:

• Back on a line.
• Stroke and distance.
• Two club lengths.

The second of which also (generally) gets you out of the bunker.

Like a yellow penalty area, bunkers are kinda meant to have to be negotiated. That's why you don't get to drop within two club lengths on the opposite margin of a yellow penalty area even if your ball crossed there - you have to drop behind it and still negotiate the hazard.

So they added an additional penalty stroke to drop out of the bunker… back on a line.


Edit to add: https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/unplayable-ball-in-a-bunker.html

This extra option results in a total of two penalty strokes, to make sure that:

• The penalty is consistent with the significant amount of relief being allowed, and
• This option does not become commonly used by players who are able to play from a bunker.

[Mark Fedeli]

Raked bunkers are hardly perfection.

Aren't they? Would consistent and well-applied raking not be the equivalent of perfection for a bunker?


I agree that players don't expect a perfect lie every time they're in a bunker — they've largely made their peace with the fried egg and other bad lies caused by the trajectory of their ball. But if their bad lie is due to poor or non-existent raking, they might see it as a fundamental, and perhaps even unfair, error of maintenance.

Is a downhill lie in a consistent and well-applied raked bunker perfection? Fair and challenging yes. Perfection no imo.

It's not. But a downhill lie is less "perfect" than a flat one no matter where you find it on the course, so I'm not sure that's a great comparison. My point was about the relative perfection of a lie in a well-raked bunker versus a lie in an unkempt one.

[Bernie Bell]

Unless most architects are complete idiots every bunker designed since 1960 has been built with a reasonable consideration for how it will be maintained. To change the rules now will change the intention of their work. Or maybe architects just build whatever looks good and hope for the best.

Maybe if bunkers were never raked, there would be a lot fewer of them. 

[John Kavanaugh]

How many thrills do you guys get in a round. The thrill of a perfectly executed shot because of a skilled attempt. Not a lucky bounce, which is a thrill but different. I would say a scratch golfer gets, for sake of argument, 5 a round. A disproportional amount of those shots are from a bunker. Please don't take that away because of a knee jerk reaction to this pandemic. Haven't we already lost enough?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I used to think I'd like bunkers sans rakes but I've changed my mind. It works for places with a lot of sand like Pine Valley, but most courses have been built with rakes in mind. If I am in a bunker and not a waste area I want a decent lie.

[William_G]

Unless most architects are complete idiots every bunker designed since 1960 has been built with a reasonable consideration for how it will be maintained. To change the rules now will change the intention of their work. Or maybe architects just build whatever looks good and hope for the best.

ask Dustin Johnson

[William_G]

No one hates raking a bunker more than the walk and carry their own bag crowd.

-10000000000

[Sean_A]

I used to think I'd like bunkers sans rakes but I've changed my mind. It works for places with a lot of sand like Pine Valley, but most courses have been built with rakes in mind. If I am in a bunker and not a waste area I want a decent lie.

I want a decent lie everywhere!

Ciao

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