[Greg Smith]

What are the best examples of par 5s we are just trying to survive, but still consider good holes?

To set parameters we'd have to be talking about a certain range of player; Tour pros certainly wouldn't apply, they live in a different world.  Hackers or seniors are no good either; for them ANY long hole can potentially be the Bataan death march.  Let's consider these holes through the lens of a good club player -- let's say below 10 handicap -- with enough power to legitimately reach some par 5s in two.

I guess the holes I'm talking about would be true three-shotters; the BEST par 5 holes are those with a range of options/decisions/outcomes which include going for it.  However, I am talking demanding (but still good) holes.

On such a hole, the golfer would have to hit a third shot that is legitimately challenging just to get on the green within realistic two-putt position.  These holes would probably demand good decisions and execution on the second shot just to be in shape to hit that third.  Working backwards, anything less than an accurate drive would preclude achieving the aforementioned second.

Are most of the holes that fit this profile "great hazard" holes like Pine Valley's 7th?  Or, do they draw their stern qualities from the green complex itself, such as the 14th at Pebble?  What about a hole like the 7th at Ekwanok (if I am thinking correctly of the one with the big hill)?

Or, are all the true three-shotters fitting this profile actually NOT good holes?

[Tim Martin]

Greg-As tough as Pine Valley 7 is I like my chances of making par better there than 15. It may be because of fairway slope and uphill nature of the hole but I can think of few more terrifying par fives. No mortal I know is getting home in two on either.

[Peter Pallotta]

Greg -
When it comes to Par 5s I'm a one trick pony: the 8th at Crystal Downs is the only Par 5 that I've ever loved. And the way you framed your question gave me a better understanding of why:
every shot I faced was 'do-able' for an average golfer, and didn't demand too much; and yet every shot was challenging & thrilling. From the tee shot onwards, I continually felt that I just might birdie the hole, but at the same time there was a underlying feeling that one miscue and I'd be scrambling for bogey. In the end, I was foiled by the easiest of golf shots -- a little 100 yard pitch, my third, which I was so excited about getting close that I pulled left instead. And even then, I was pleased/relieved that it 'only' took me a chippy recovery and two putts to hole out. Even after many years, it's still in my memory the most enjoyable Par 5 I've ever played, by a wide margin.
Peter

[David Wuthrich]

I always think of Bethpage Black # 4 when that question comes up.

[Mark Pearce]

13 at Silloth fits and it's a great hole

[Tim Martin]

Yale 18

[Tom_Doak]

When I started on the routing for Cape Kidnappers, I was hesitant to build a hole on the long finger that's now the 15th, because it is only 40 yards wide with penalties to both sides.  [The client quickly instructed that he wanted drama like that and that we worried too much about lost balls, absolving me of any future guilt.]


I've come to really like the hole.  It's o.b. left and lateral hazard to the right, so by all rational strategy you should never miss left, even though Sean O'Hair did, twice, playing for big money! 


In all variants of play, the key is to keep the ball in play at all costs.  Instead of thinking about whether you're going for it in two or playing safely, this is a three-shot hole where sometimes the best strategy is approaching it as a four-shot hole.  In match play, that strategy often wins the hole.


Would that be right for every course?  No.  Is it right for a high-end resort course on that kind of ground?  Absolutely.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Maybe OT, and not an example, but a design theory.


When working with relatively short hitters like Larry Nelson and Notah Begay III, who might actually replicate approximate distances of low handicap ams, they emphasized that 550 yard par fives are still usually 3 shotters for them.  Take the average PGA Tour drive of 294 (up a few yards from 2 years ago) and figure 90% for a fw wood, or 265 yards, and the max they can reach with 559 yards, adjusted for wind, uphill, downhill, elevation, etc.  10 years ago, it was closer to 540 being unreachable.  However, most players can crank a drive at least 10 yards further on command when really needed, so maybe 570 or so becomes unreachable for the lower half of the field, distance wise, today.


Notah made me remove a "ring of peals" type bunker scheme on a 540 yard par 5, needing an opening to roll it on.  One of the most memorable Larry Nelson ideas was to leave the 540-570 yard par 5 holes with a very narrow entry ramp (I called it the "cat walk" between two bunkers or depressions) so he could use his accuracy with a 3 wood to attain the green, and compete with the Greg Norman types (dating my story a bit) who might be flying a high 2 iron in.



The holes in question were 3 at Brookstone near Atlanta and 11 at Firekeeper in Kansas, although I have done a few others like them, and it is sort of my "hip pocket" go to idea for the mid length par 5 holes.  That's my theory and I am sticking to it......

[Carl Rogers]

Hole 14 @ Riverfront .... about 550 from the back, fish hook dogleg with bunkers at the corner.  Multiple second shot options from various hanging lies.  Unless you are a big hitter, the third shot is partially blind.  Green that predominately runs away from the line of play.

[Ira Fishman]

Numbers 11 and 16 at the River Course at Kohler.


Number 9 at Congressional.


Number 18 at Waterville.


Ira

[Thomas Dai]

The 1st on the Kilmore-9 at Carne is pretty brutal and it’s normally downwind. Challengingly contoured green when you eventually get there too. And then a little while later you come to the 5th playing either through the canyon or if you’re brave over the top of the right hand ridge. More brutality and this time usually into the wind. Epic stuff.
Atb

[David_Tepper]

#16 on the Lake Course at the Olympic Club. All 3 shots have to be good ones if you are hoping to have a putt for birdie.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I agree with 15 at Pine Valley being one of the most demanding. The tee shot is benign enough but the second shot to the narrow landing are and the third shot to and small green require pre is ion and accuracy.
Beyond that 14 at Pebble is also tough. Hitting the correct club for the third shot and pulling it off is tricky indeed.

[Tom_Doak]

Actually, I've been waiting to say anything about it here because I don't have many of the articles up yet, but for my new web site I am attempting to recover and post all of my writings in one place.


One of the few I DO have up is my first big article for GOLF Magazine, from May 1982.  It was called The Untouchables, and the subject was all of the par-5 holes in the U.S. that had never been hit in two shots, which includes many of those already mentioned here.


You can find it at www.doakgolf.com/the-untouchables/


Note:  one of the pages hasn't loaded correctly for some reason.  Will try to get that fixed.

[Colin Sheehan]

Tom,
Very cool to share. Well done. I was sure Yale's 18th would be on the list. There was always this rumor that John Daly reached the green in two during the Ben Hogan Tour event in 1990 or 1991 but I can confirm I watched with my own eyes--with a slight helping wind--Brandon Mathews from Temple, competing in the 2015 NCAA Regional, reached the green from the 621 tee with driver and 4-iron (or was it maybe a 6-iron?) from the up-slope from about 250 yards.  I can't recall if he was on the back of the putting surface in two or if the ball released through the green into the immediate rough behind the green, but the question of whether or not he could reach it was a indisputable. He had played it that round as a two-shot hole.


Brandon was and remains the longest player I've ever seen in college golf. And his driving stats hold up with nearly anyone else in pro golf these days.   

[J_ Crisham]

#11 at Beverly
#7 at Butler National
   
   
You'd better be able to bring it on these holes . The greens are pretty testy as well.

[Tim_Weiman]

Numbers 11 and 16 at the River Course at Kohler.


Number 9 at Congressional.


Number 18 at Waterville.


Ira

#11 at Black Wolf Run was the first hole that came to mind. #16 is really good as well.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
Very cool to share. Well done. I was sure Yale's 18th would be on the list. There was always this rumor that John Daly reached the green in two during the Ben Hogan Tour event in 1990 or 1991 but I can confirm I watched with my own eyes--with a slight helping wind--Brandon Mathews from Temple, competing in the 2015 NCAA Regional, reached the green from the 621 tee with driver and 4-iron (or was it maybe a 6-iron?) from the up-slope from about 250 yards.  I can't recall if he was on the back of the putting surface in two or if the ball released through the green into the immediate rough behind the green, but the question of whether or not he could reach it was a indisputable. He had played it that round as a two-shot hole.
 

I believe every hole on that list has now been hit [and held] in two.


I played with an assistant pro from Streamsong a couple of years ago at Crystal Downs, who hit his drive over the hill at the 8th [which I have seen quite a few times], and then hit a 4-iron onto the green [which had certainly been done before by then, but I'd never seen it in person].  He did not think it was remarkable at all.


Luckily, he then three-putted for par.    [size=78%] [/size]

[Pete_Pittock]

In Oregon I would think Pacific Dunes 18, Waverley 18 and Pacific Dunes 15.  PD18 stands out for length, angle and back/right green bias. Also Pumpkin Ridge-Witch Hollow 18. Another bedbug for me is Bandon Crossing 18 with its mid hole ravine, which I couldn't carry in 2 and left me too far away for the third.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,



You could use the same title for an article about golf holes that can no longer be built because of wetland restrictions.  Look at that swamp in the background of the lead photo.  I have to figure most of the rest of the land looked similar.  It wasn't quite as bad next door when we did Wild Wing, but Willard Byrd had incurred a fine for filling wetlands on his course.


I'm wondering if that was the last time you used the phrase, "The accepted formula is...…"?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,



You could use the same title for an article about golf holes that can no longer be built because of wetland restrictions.  Look at that swamp in the background of the lead photo.  I have to figure most of the rest of the land looked similar.  It wasn't quite as bad next door when we did Wild Wing, but Willard Byrd had incurred a fine for filling wetlands on his course.


I'm wondering if that was the last time you used the phrase, "The accepted formula is...…"?

Jeff:


Yeah, when I was building The Legends I had an apartment up by The Dunes, and after becoming familiar with the wetlands plants on our site I just happened to notice how "soft" and flat the 13th fairway was, and how there were nothing but wetland plants on the INLAND side of the hole.  I guess the rules back then were, if you could physically build something and wanted to spend the money on it, you could do whatever -- which is how those curves along the lake worked out so perfectly.


As to the quote - yes, probably the last time I used that phrase.  I was 20, and on my way to the U.K. two months later.

[Tim Leahy]

#16 on the Lake Course at the Olympic Club. All 3 shots have to be good ones if you are hoping to have a putt for birdie.

+1 16th during the US Open has always been a critical hole.


Also the 16th at the Stadium course at PGA West is tough.

[James Brown]

#14 at Pebble Beach Into the breeze would be my pick.  Either you hit three very good shots or you walk off with some kind of big number. 


Haven’t played it since they renovated the green a couple years ago, though. 

[Jeff Schley]

Although there is no OB/water on hole #9 at Big Run GC in Lockport, Ill. (not far from Cog Hill) is a 610 yard par 5 that is uphill and a dogleg right hasn't been reached in 2. The course is heavily treed and you don't have much room for 2nd shots unless you hit your ball very high to go around them in some places. I looked at their website to see if they still claim it has never been hit in 2 and they do.  Not sure if that is actually true, but growing up it was always the legend that no one can hit it in 2. Back then it was definitely true, nowadays it is hard to believe any par 5 is unreachable for the long guys.

Some of the Chicago posters here I'm sure have played it, always known as a tough layout in Chicago.

https://www.bigrungolf.com/about-us/course-layout/

[Matthew Rose]

#14 at Pebble Beach Into the breeze would be my pick.  Either you hit three very good shots or you walk off with some kind of big number. 

Can vouch for this one. I needed a 6-iron for my third shot after a good drive and second. From a middle tee.

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