Most demanding par-5s

[Michael Felton]

I believe every hole on that list has now been hit [and held] in two.

When I saw the title to the thread, Pine Valley's 7th and 15th sprung immediately to mind. Then on reading the post, the 14th at RSG seemed apt. Disaster awaits at every step, but in favorable conditions it is reachable even by normal people.


My reason for quoting your post is to ask how on earth anyone could possibly hit and hold the 7th at Pine Valley. 15 I heard about an Argentine amateur who hit it with a driver and a 4 iron and that's at least plausible. The article talks about Nicklaus hitting his driver into Hell's Half Acre and then smacking it into the fronting bank from there. Have to be lucky to get a lie where that's even feasible, but to then hold the green? Seems unlikely to me, but maybe not. I suppose it's conceivable too that someone like Kyle Berkshire could potentially carry Hell's Half Acre from the tee. Some of those guys can carry it 400 yards, which I think would be enough. Mind boggling to imagine, but it's all I can realistically think of.

[Jason Thurman]

When I saw the thread title, two holes came to mind. 14 at Pebble as noted by others, and 15 at The Harvester.


I only played 15 at The Harvester three times I think, back in 2011/2012. I remember the hole well in some ways. It's over 600 yards, and uphill all the way, and was into the wind each time I played it. To this day, I think it plays longer than any other par 5 I've ever played.


What I'm not sure about is how "good" the hole is. And that's not really because I don't remember it, but more because I think you need more than three plays 8+ years ago to get a good feel for it. It's uphill enough that a lot of the features of the hole don't really shine through right away because you can't see what's on the ground more than about 100 yards ahead of you, and it's tough enough that I was always more preoccupied with trying to survive the journey than thinking about the playing qualities on any broader level.


But I remember the trauma it could inflict, for sure. And that says something for it.


What do we think about demanding par 5s in the "not too long, but extremely narrow" category? Just down the road from The Harvester, for example, is the delightful Waveland. Hole 3 there is a beast. I don't remember the yardage, but it's reachable for plenty of players I'm sure. But it's so narrow that I eventually came to realize I needed to play it as something like a 5 iron-5 iron-9 iron hole.

[Colin Sheehan]

Tom,
I give you credit for the breadth of the article by chasing down the range of quotes and comments: Nicklaus, Palmer, Dye, RTJ, George Fazio, Venturi...and Coach Paterson!

I like that you used the words controversial, arduous and ruthless to describe Yale's 18th hole. It still remains a flash point among college coaches and players, and I consider it a very telling litmus test for whether someone believes it is a game of vigorous adventure (as Macdonald certainly describes the game) or whether they are a sniveling ninny who believes in some universal golfing commandment of perpetual architectural fairness.

The mention of the 20-yard wide landing area suggests the course was reaching its peak over-grown era. Today, it is a rather generous landing area and it continues to get even wider as the once over-grown fescue and rough is increasingly groomed into regular rough height.

And since you were only in college, I will give you a pass for propelling the dubious legend that Macdonald "ran out of inspiration". Where did that come from?  The hole has been dogged for years by similar slights--(perhaps because of this very article?)--: that they ran out of money, or they couldn't afford to knock down the hill, etc  When in fact, as you know, it is one of the most endlessly fascinating and inspirational holes anywhere. I can't think of many other examples that can be played in more various ways. And as I got to see other CBM creations, it felt more and more in place among his work, especially when compared to the 18th hole at NGLA. I imagine it also has an element of being like a hilly version of Lido's Channel hole, with the contours substituting for the water carries.

I do sympathize with the modern college players who complain that the tee shot requires them to dial back their driver and use one of their driving irons from the 621 tee, even if they do so with little sense of golf technology being to blame. 

[Carl Nichols]

The much-maligned 14th at Cuscowilla might fit the bill here.

[JJShanley]

I'm a fan of the 9th at Rolling Green. (Links to Joe Bausch's Collection.) It plays between 560 and 600 depending on the tees for the day, uphill and (if memory serves) into the prevailing wind.


You have the choice from the tee to hit a fade that should end up lower, level ground (although a bunker lurks) or hit up the left and give yourself a chance to use the slopes from the left to get another 25-30 yards. If you choose the latter and overcook it you'll have the ball beneath your feet for your second.


I can't reach that green even downwind, so my next shot is a case of avoiding a LHS bunker 95 yards short of the green.


The green itself rises a little from the fairway and had a variety of slopes. I think it generally sloped from back to front.

[Tom_Doak]

The mention of the 20-yard wide landing area suggests the course was nearing the peak over grown era. Today it is a rather generous landing area. And it continues to get even wider.

And since you were only in college, I will give you a pass for propelling the dubious legend that Macdonald "ran out of inspiration". Where did that come from?  

According to Google Earth, the fairway is 16 yards wide @200 yards from the back tee, and 13 yards wide @300 yards, although it's very wide in between.  I'm not sure which I was referring to.


As to your second complaint, consider which school waitlisted me when I applied, and that I attended a rival Ivy League institution instead.

[Colin Sheehan]

Definitely Yale's loss, although New Haven was extremely edgy in the late 70s/early 80s. Not like bucolic Ithaca. And sadly, we don't have the Dreer Scholarship.


Regarding the width, from the middle of the back high tee to the thick of the landing area is 260 yards where the perpendicular of the fairway is 70 yards wide. So it is definitely rather wide and even wider for anyone shaping the ball from left to right.

[Ira Fishman]

Tom,


Just think how golf course architecture would be different if you did not attend a college with The Robert Trent Jones Golf Course.


Colin,


Naples Pizza was still open in the late 70s. Alas, no more, as you know.


Ira

[William_G]

Yale 18

for sure

[John McCarthy]

In about 84 Payne Stuart supposedly got home on #7 at Butler in a practice round with a pair of 2 irons (went through the first fairway by accident off the tee). 

[Scott Weersing]

The 15th at RTJ Sr Golden Horseshoe Gold Course is an almost unreachable par 5 at 634 yards. However, Jaime Lovemark was one of the first to reach it during the 2007 NCAA championship.


https://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-xpm-20070531-2007-05-31-0705310398-story.html


So is it a good design? It starts with the classic 100 yard long runway tees. It has OB left and a drop off into another fairway on the right. There is a nice bunker on the right side about 90 yards from the hole, right where you would want to place your layup. There is a large, elevated green that drops off 30 feet, long and left. It is the only par 5 on the back nine of the par 71 course which opened in 1963.


https://www.colonialwilliamsburghotels.com/golf/gold-course/

[David Davis]

The 15th hole at Fazenda Boavista on the Palmer Course plays 721 yds as a par 5 from the black tee with a 280 yd down hill carry to reach the fairway. Short is lost in the native and without a machete and a shotgun I wouldn't venture to look.


Let's say it's a beast, but still plays downhill.