Domed Ross Greens

[Kalen Braley]

It was mentioned in the telecast that Seminole had the "trademark" domed DR greens and I wanted to take this discussion to its own thread.

A few points to consider:

- Its been stated domed greens most likely occur due to top dressing over the years. Other than Seminole and P2 are there other examples where this has occurred?  Especially with ODG courses that are similar age?
- C&C restored Seminole a couple of years back as well as Pinehurst #2 a decade ago. From what i understand and have seen in pictures and TV footage, both of these courses appear to have greens that are slightly domed and/or fall away on most sides, in their post-restoration state.
- If C&C conducted proper due diligence and extensive research and closely restored them to original, is it possible the DR domed greens claim is at least plausible?  Or did C&C not alter the greens in their work?

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:


In the old days, superintendents would get bermuda greens in half-good shape by topdressing them a lot.  That's what caused the greens at Pinehurst and Seminole to become "domed" over time.  Topdressing on bent greens was not as aggressive until the last 25 years, so you don't see as many "domed" Ross greens in northern climates!


I'm not sure about Seminole, but at Pinehurst No. 2 the greens were not "closely restored to original" after "proper due diligence and extensive research".  Neither the resort nor Bill & Ben wanted to change them much from what people had come to know and love.  I am not sure if they were softened a little -- my guess would be "yes" -- but they were not restored.


One of the hardest things about restoration is that in a case like that, there are probably no good records of the greens contours from back in the day, so you are guessing and using your best judgment as to exactly what they might have been like.  Ed Connor did map the greens when they were first built to USGA specs, in the early 1980's I think, but by then they would have already been built up near their present levels.  [And Ed admitted to me he made some small changes when the greens were rebuilt . . . I noticed a pocket in the 18th green, and asked him if that was really original, and he said the resort had him change it because they didn't want balls kicking off the right side of that green through the swale that used to be there.]

[Don Mahaffey]

Tom,
your comment about top dressing Bermuda heavily makes sense to me as without the modern machines that control thatch that’d be the only way to keep them firm and smooth.
But, how much of the “dome” approach was a result of agronomy and surface drainage? It seems most of the Maxwell greens I’ve seen had great surface drainage, often too fast for modern grasses which seems why they’ve just about all been rebuilt. 
If we had to build greens out of less than ideal native soils, I’m guessing those greens would be crowned, or domed, with some fast slopes on the edges for drainage. 
Ross built a lot of golf courses, and I wonder if agronomy and the need for great surface drainage influenced him more on his southern courses.

[JC Jones]

I think Ross did some "push up" greens in places, especially on flatter sites, which may be what we are considering "domed" today (I guess with the build up of top dressing over time but I dont think the historical pictures for places like Seminole or #2 show massive increases in elevation for the greens.  Which would be why I think its more a reflection of push up greens by Ross than a top dressing issue.  I could be wrong though, I dont have any of my Ross stuff in front of me as I type this.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Thanks for the clarification on P2, as C&C apparently didn't modify them much.  It would be interesting to know what they did at Seminole, but that may be a tough nut to crack with how private they are.

As it relates to the first point in my OP, it seems if top dressing was common, (at least in the south), shouldn't we find lots of other older courses that did same and ended up with crowned greens? 

[Peter Pallotta]

K -
can you imagine the restoration specialist who wanted to put science, principles and facts ahead of art, practicalities and intuition and naively proposed to ownership that the Pinehurst No 2 greens should be returned to their 'original' design and 'pre-top dressing' contours? No, neither can I -- poor fellow never stood a chance.  And (somewhat surprising to me), I'm glad he didn't.  Which is to say: I think *talent* trumps everything else, and is its own justification. The only problem, especially in the context of a discussion board, is that talent is also the final word -- i.e. there's not much else to say about it, it's either there or it isn't, and it is only proved in the doing and after the work is done.
P

[Tom_Doak]

K -
can you imagine the restoration specialist who wanted to put science, principles and facts ahead of art, practicalities and intuition and naively proposed to ownership that the Pinehurst No 2 greens should be returned to their 'original' design and 'pre-top dressing' contours? No, neither can I -- poor fellow never stood a chance.  And (somewhat surprising to me), I'm glad he didn't.  Which is to say: I think *talent* trumps everything else, and is its own justification. The only problem, especially in the context of a discussion board, is that talent is also the final word -- i.e. there's not much else to say about it, it's either there or it isn't, and it is only proved in the doing and after the work is done.
P

It was the same with the bunkers at Riviera.  The club has old photographs which show clearly that those bunkers were not so dramatic originally, and that the edges must have been built up by the great volume of golfers hitting bunker shots over the years.  When we interviewed for the work back in the 90's, they asked if we thought that should be "fixed", but it was clear from their question that the answer was "no".

[Mike_Young]

As it relates to the first point in my OP, it seems if top dressing was common, (at least in the south), shouldn't we find lots of other older courses that did same and ended up with crowned greens?

You can find plenty...

[Mark_Fine]

C&C were instructed to not change the greens at Pinehurst #2.  They "evolved" to what they are now (top dressing played a huge part) as did work done by Nicklaus and Rees Jones, but I can say for certain Ross would not recognize them.  As for the greens at Seminole, I prefer not to discuss their history on this forum out of respect for the club.  What I will say is that Ross built a lot of elevated and perched greens but he did not purposely build "doomed" greens like you see at Pinehurst #2.  He was, however, as were most architects of this time, very conscious about surface drainage but he was also one of the first to use drain tile in some of his greens. 

[Mike_Young]

C&C were instructed to not change the greens at Pinehurst #2.  They "evolved" to what they are now (top dressing played a huge part) as did work done by Nicklaus and Rees Jones, but I can say for certain Ross would not recognize them.  As for the greens at Seminole, I prefer not to discuss their history on this forum out of respect for the club.  What I will say is that Ross built a lot of elevated and perched greens but he did not purposely build "doomed" greens like you see at Pinehurst #2.  He was, however, as were most architects of this time, very conscious about surface drainage but he was also one of the first to use drain tile in some of his greens.

Mark,Why more respect for Seminole than Pinehurst #2?  Aloofness is fabricated in most cases, especially with golf clubs... 
ERNEST JONES...

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
No disrespect at all to Pinehurst #2 (it is one of my favorite courses), but it is well known, at least in the GCA circles, that the greens at #2 have changed drastically over the years and that when C&C did the “restoration” that the greens were left alone.

Pete Dye was one of the few that knew the history of what evolved at Seminole. Maybe someone else here would be willing to share the story but I will pass.  What I will say though is that Ross did not purposely build doomed greens!

Mark

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

Thanks for the insights.  On a side note, is it common for greens to be more or less left alone in Restorations? Or perhaps on sandy sites such as P2 and Seminole, they are better left as is.

P.S.  Can't tell if you're purposely using "doomed" as opposed to "domed".  I suppose for most golfers, the former is the more appropriate term. 

[Tom_Doak]

Mark,Why more respect for Seminole than Pinehurst #2?

He doesn't want to burn his invite, silly.  Don't need one at Pinehurst.

[Jay Mickle]

The fact that Pinehurst # 1 & 3, Mid Pines, Pine Needles etc did not achieve the same increase in elevation as #2 makes me question the theory that top dressing at #2 led to the domed greens. The common denominator of the other courses is that they all have more rolling topography hence did not need the added height and would have achieved it if top dressing was the causative factor.

[Mark_Fine]

Kalen,
Typo, my bad.  Meant domed     


The answer is generally left alone (if they haven’t already been rebuilt or severely altered).  Most of the time the greens have just shrunk in size from mowing and need to be expanded out to the edge of the fill pads to restore lost hole locations and reconnect them to the surrounds. 


Tom,
You surely know the history of Seminole.  Why don’t you explain it     I have played there and very much enjoy the golf course.  I just don’t think the membership wants this kind of thing discussed on a site like this.  I respect that.  It is no different than certain courses that don’t want photos of their course posted on public sites. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Read Rich Mandell's Pinehurst book and look at the pictures if you want to know what P2 originally looked like.


If the dome thing was really prevalent, I suspect Ross devotees would have been called Domeheads from pretty early on.

[Chris Gibson]

Kudos to my friend Mr.Mickle. I couldn't agree more with your explanation of the domed greens on #2. To me, Foxy comes to mind!

[Kalen Braley]

Kudos to my friend Mr.Mickle. I couldn't agree more with your explanation of the domed greens on #2. To me, Foxy comes to mind!

This is the crux of the argument, shouldn't there be dozens if not hundreds of other courses with similar domed greens? 


The paradox is tough to get a handle on between the claims of what was there originally and the lack of evidence of this occurring on other courses.  We have a diverse and well traveled set of people on this forum, are there any examples or course reviews showing where else this happened?

[Jerry Kluger]

My recollection of #2 was that most of the greens had closely mowed grass around them which would emphasize the dome effect so perhaps if they were surrounded by long rough they wouldn't give as much of an appearance of being domed.

[cary lichtenstein]

Domed greens are frigging the dumbest, why repel good shots. at a 5 stempmeter is way differnent from today