[Peter Pallotta]

Magicians don't share their secrets (ie how the trick was done), and comedians don't explain their jokes (ie why it was funny); but this website and their many books are all about architects pulling back the curtain and telling us what they were thinking and how they work and why golf courses are great. But we marvel at magic precisely because of the mystery and we laugh at jokes precisely because they surprise -- so why is gca different? How/why does understanding the process help us enjoy the product?

[SL_Solow]

Peter,  very few people in the audience think that they could perform the magic tricks better than the magician.  While too many of us think that we are funny, not many would be willing to match up against a professional stand up.  But almost every golfer spends time redesigning their home course or speculating about a piece of real estate that they have observed.  Hence the desire to learn more about the process.  Moreover, by explaining the complexity of the process, the professional justifies the value of his/her services.  Educating the consumer may also help in performing their duties.

[Peter Pallotta]

Shel, all valid points (and, bumpkin that I am, I'd never considered the justification-of-fees aspect). But: how does knowing why a road map looks like it does help us to better enjoy the journey? Or, to borrow from a current thread: how does 'identifying' the connector holes aid us in taking each golf hole as it comes, and in happily playing the course as we find it? How does understanding all the tree-clearing work involved in creating a skyline green make an actual approach shot to that green any more engaging and thrilling? And conversely: might it be that such 'knowing' and 'identifying' and 'understanding' (and the concomitant & constant critiques) actually hamper our enjoyment of a round of golf, said round of golf (and our enjoyment) being the main reasons that gca exists in the first place? Note: I am a big fan of learning/knowledge for its own sake -- but at what point does curiosity kill the cat (you know, metaphorically speaking)?

[Sean_A]

Pietro

I have yet to get the impression that too much has been revealed by architecture discussions.  That couild partly be because it is a guessing game for the ODGs, it could also partly be because so much decision making is dictated by forces which have more to do with the reality of the job than any sort of ideals. I still believe there is a difference between between what we play and how good the archie was.   

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Peter,


Interesting topic.  I'm very interested in "Getting to eighteen" in hopes to see some additional details/insights on the process from both a routing standpoint and getting the course into the ground.  This has long been the most mysterious part of GCA for me...

[Tom_Doak]

How/why does understanding the process help us enjoy the product?

I don't know.  Why are you here? 🙃


For my part, I'm sharing the tricks mostly for the benefit of the other magicians.


But there does seem to be a wider audience, as well.  Some people have expressed concern to me that I may enable "amateurs" to try their hand at designing on their own, and honestly I have mixed feelings about that.  I believe it's a good thing that there are no barriers to entry in this field, but I have also observed how some guys think they should skip the intermediate steps, hang out a shingle, and pay the young and trained and talented to make them look good!


Personally, I'm rooting for the young and trained and talented to get a shot at the lead role themselves, but that's not always how business works.

[Tom_Doak]

Peter,


Interesting topic.  I'm very interested in "Getting to eighteen" in hopes to see some additional details/insights on the process from both a routing standpoint and getting the course into the ground.  This has long been the most mysterious part of GCA for me...

I tried to stick to the routings and hold back on the part about getting the course into the ground.  Some things should be reserved for those who put in the time and effort!

[Peter Pallotta]

Ha - 'why am I here?" reminds me of first year philosophy class!

I'm not questioning the inherent value of your work, Tom, or of Dr Mac's or of any other architect writing about his craft. The pleasure of reading good writing and thoughtful analysis by those who have mastered their crafts is why I'm here. (Yes, I could do without the endless 'lists' that tend to dominate the board, and the one word answers that go with them -- which neither provide good writing nor require much thought.)

But you yourself might've once noted (if memory serves) that in your early days you preferred not to read a lot about or look at a lot of photos of a golf course you hadn't yet seen and were about to -- wanting, I assume, to let your own personal/subjective and first-time experience take precedence over the 2nd hand/accepted opinions of others; and I think that to this day you'd prefer if folks 'discovered' your courses themselves, in the playing, instead of having read a dozen pages of commentary and a hundred photos before even getting there for the first time.

That's what I'm getting at and grappling with, the fact that there is something to be said for exploring golf course architecture in the purest and truest (and most relevant) way, ie in the actual playing -- and that getting a constant look behind the curtain may, just may, and in a subtle way, negatively impact that experience.


P

[Tom_Doak]

Ha - 'why am I here?" reminds me of first year philosophy class!


But you yourself might've once noted (if memory serves) that in your early days you preferred not to read a lot about or look at a lot of photos of a golf course you hadn't yet seen and were about to -- wanting, I assume, to let your own personal/subjective and first-time experience take precedence over the 2nd hand/accepted opinions of others; and I think that to this day you'd prefer if folks 'discovered' your courses themselves, in the playing, instead of having read a dozen pages of commentary and a hundred photos before even getting there for the first time.

Oh - yes, indeed, I'm concerned about not putting up so many photos of my courses on my new web site, for just that reason.  I want to whet people's appetites, but still leave them plenty to discover.


(It's funny how photographers do that by accident - they take a million pictures of their 4-6 favorite holes.  In 19 years I have never seen a picture of the 6th or 7th or 8th at Pacific Dunes, or the 15th green, or the big bunker on 18, except in a hole by hole review like Ran's.)


Weirdly, though, when I sent three sample chapters to friends early in the process, they all said they expected only to get the narrative about the courses they had played.  But they found the opposite-- architects or not, it was easier for them to understand the process if they didn't have the existing holes fixed in their minds!


Which is why I don't want to see someone else's routing until I am pretty far along in my own process . . .

[Ken Moum]

Peter, I started reading about architecture because I was writing a weekly e-newsletter for GCSAA and wanted to start each edition with a quote.


After I used Jim Moore's quote, "The three best fungicides are Stihl, Poulan and McCullough," I soon realized the hat nearly all the good quotes were from Architects.


That lead me on a quest to understand why golf courses look the way they do.


Ultimately, Geoff Shackelford's "Grounds for Golf" got me looking at courses to understand why I liked some and not others.


I don't look at them in advance, and hardly ever think much about GCA while I'm playing. (I'm not good enough to take advantage of most strategic design)


Now I realize I like "interesting" courses, but not hard ones.


I love Brora, more than anywhere I've been. TOC, too. Don't want to play Carnoustie.


I Think RDC is too hard to play all the time, but intend play it every time I'm in the area, unless I have to pay full price. (The Highlands recip. rate is about right, so we'll join Golspie or Brora next trip)


Your concern about that peek behind the curtain? I try to only go there when I am truly offended by a course or hole, and then I do it to understand why...and maybe see if I think there was a better way.

[Thomas Dai]

Hinting at discovery, wetting appetites, not showing too much too soon, teasing etc can be great ways to generate interest and demand.
And magicians etc giving away some of their secrets can be a way of making money or laying down their legacy in their chosen profession.

atb

[Ira Fishman]

Ha - 'why am I here?" reminds me of first year philosophy class!

I'm not questioning the inherent value of your work, Tom, or of Dr Mac's or of any other architect writing about his craft. The pleasure of reading good writing and thoughtful analysis by those who have mastered their crafts is why I'm here. (Yes, I could do without the endless 'lists' that tend to dominate the board, and the one word answers that go with them -- which neither provide good writing nor require much thought.)

But you yourself might've once noted (if memory serves) that in your early days you preferred not to read a lot about or look at a lot of photos of a golf course you hadn't yet seen and were about to -- wanting, I assume, to let your own personal/subjective and first-time experience take precedence over the 2nd hand/accepted opinions of others; and I think that to this day you'd prefer if folks 'discovered' your courses themselves, in the playing, instead of having read a dozen pages of commentary and a hundred photos before even getting there for the first time.

That's what I'm getting at and grappling with, the fact that there is something to be said for exploring golf course architecture in the purest and truest (and most relevant) way, ie in the actual playing -- and that getting a constant look behind the curtain may, just may, and in a subtle way, negatively impact that experience.


P

Peter,


I tend to read the “secrets” only after I have played a course. My planning for and follow up from trips is analogous to my process for reading books. I will read several reviews (plus ask for opinions here), engage in the course or book, and then follow up to learn more for those that really strike a chord. I am not strict about it, but it gives me a well rounded perspective.


Ira

[Peter Pallotta]

Ira, Ken, Sean, Thomas -
excuse this (long and sort of tangential) sidebar, but it came to mind:
about 15-20 years ago, I was with two friends who were the first people I knew to have ipods-apple playlists, and who had compiled together about 500 songs -- which, because both friends were in the tv commercial industry and wanted to stay current, included both past hits/older performers as well as the newest songs and hippest up-and-comers.
We were sitting around, eating, talking, laughing, playing cards, and all the while, in the background, the music played, one song after another in random order. We must've sat there for 4 hours, chatting away as the music played on.
And in that entire time, only twice did I ever actually notice the music -- despite the dozens and dozens of songs I 'heard' (but not really), only twice did I stop talking or eating and turn my full attention to the music, i.e. because the music demanded my attention.
The first was when Louis Armstrong played his opening cadenza of "West End Blues" (which I'd heard many times before).
The second was when I heard the first few words by a female vocalist -- who I'd never heard before or even dreamed of hearing, and whose voice literally yanked my head up and pushed me back in my chair:
"Who's that?!" I asked.
And my friend smiled knowingly, as if to say 'I knew you'd love it, and you have good taste', and said "That's Amy Winehouse".
Think of that: music for hours, all of it merely a blur in the background, and then in just the first few words that she sang, Amy's enormous talent and wonderful style cut through like a knife, and I instantly knew that it was great.
And why did that great talent and style strike me so immediately and so hard, and why do I remember that experience 20 years later? Maybe precisely because I'd never heard her before or read about her even once or even knew she existed.
Of course, I'll never know how I would've reacted if I'd read all about Amy Winehouse before first hearing her, and had been informed by countless experts that she was 'great'.
But I sure treasure the experience as it was -- a true revelation.

[Anthony Fowler]

Personally, I disagree with the premise. GCA is not different. I love learning about how magic tricks are done, how comedians craft their jokes, the formulas used by screenwriters, how Vermeer created his paintings (which makes him impressive for completely different reasons), etc. If you're a thoughtful, analytical person, you'll enjoy art more when you understand the artistic process, the constraints faced by the artist, etc., and you'll have a deeper appreciation for great work.


For a simple example within GCA, when I read Doak's discussion of the challenges associated with routing holes along the higher ground in Arizona (in the Confidential Guide), it made me appreciate those desert routings more than I previously had, and it also helped me understand why, for example, I prefer the best courses in Massachusetts over the best courses in Arizona.


For many, this kind of knowledge may be a double-edged sword. If you enjoy a magic trick and then later learn that it requires no skill and little cleverness (which is close to the truth for some kinds of tricks), you're not going to enjoy watching it again. But this kind of knowledge makes you appreciate the great tricks on a deeper level. The same is surely true in GCA. If you're the kind of person who thinks of golf as a way to kill some time with friends, drink some beer, ride in a cart, and wack a ball, you may not want analyze your home course, understand its evolution, or notice its limitations. But for the typical person on this site, I would imagine that we value knowledge for its own sake, we enjoy golf more when we can think about the architecture (good or bad), and we can appreciate the good designs more when we know a little more about how the sausage is made.

[Jeff_Brauer]

If this pandemic ever ends, the ASGCA Foundation will be putting out a book where I took all my Golf Course Industry columns, pared them down to 2 page subject matter, and presented all the "practical ideas" behind what a golf course architect might be thinking, and things for you to consider in a renovation. 


While it appears to be going forward, there was/is some concern among members that I "gave away the shop" so it was watered down a bit (not too much) because of it.  I also had to write more generally than I might here or anywhere else, in trying to speak in the voice of over 100 gca's.  I had a few committees review it, and they all seemed on board.  I really didn't mind the info I gave out because:


   1) it can be found on other blogs on the internet, and the value of this might be to condense it into easily searchable topics on "nuts and bolts" subjects, like "How much land does a practice range take," and


  2) even knowing the principles behind certain decisions doesn't mean everyone can think like an architect and produce a product.


The book title could be "It ain't rocket science, folks!" Most of the principles are pretty common sense.  And, I usually write (as I suspect TD does) because I believe most of my brethren really don't think things out, they do it as it has always been done (by their mentors, or perhaps copying Mac, Ross, Thompson, etc.)  And, as my Dad said, "If you can't explain it in a few sentences, its probably not a good idea.  And, more sentences doesn't make it a better idea."  Einstein said, "If you can't explain it to a five year old, you probably don't understand the subject."  I will go out on a limb and say Dad paraphrased Albert and not the other way around.


And, as some of the quotes I posted in a recent thread say, design isn't art only and it sure isn't entertainment only.  Even if I laid out every design principle known to man, how those get applied to every situation - because there are no absolutes where everything is exactly the same - is the crux of good design.  I don't worry about the DIY types out there, as they were probably never going to hire a gca anyway, and if this book helps them do it less badly, its probably a win for gca, but I doubt it costs any architect any real money.  It might delay it, because almost every renovation I've done comes AFTER a course figured they could save the fee of an architect.  (A point I also make in the book.)

[MCirba]

My roommate in college trained himself in magic and comedy during those years and now into his 60s has crafted a good lifestyle and livelihood getting paid to perform those talents, at least until the pandemic.


As his roomate, and lifelong friend, I've come to understand the magic behind the magic of several of his most magical tricks and it's mostly taken the magic out of them, for what it's worth.

[Sean_A]

I know what you mean Pietro. I sometimes hear interesting music in movies etc. However, when I dig deeper it inevitably results in disappointment. I reckon the visual entertainment industry is far better these days with fitting the music to the scene. Strip back the visual curtains and usually it's just the odd newly discovered song with lasting interest and very rarely any body of work. Maybe the same can be said for the darlings of architecture today. Mind you, the best of this lot will readily say their best work started out as gold and that they gave it a good polish. 

BTW It's a shame what happened to A Winehouse. She could have been something very special.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

My roommate in college trained himself in magic and comedy during those years and now into his 60s has crafted a good lifestyle and livelihood getting paid to perform those talents, at least until the pandemic.


As his roomate, and lifelong friend, I've come to understand the magic behind the magic of several of his most magical tricks and it's mostly taken the magic out of them, for what it's worth.

As someone who understands the human condition as well as you, Mike, perhaps you may find it interesting to learn why such simple magic works as the omniscient observer of both audience and magician.

That will always fascinate me.

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