[redanman]

I finally got my sorry *ss out to Bethpage to play the Black in 65* weather yesterday.  I know the place has been discussed here ad nauseum, but I was struck with the similarity of the complex to Pinehurst with five courses radiating out from the same clubhouse.  (THe Black for non-residents is now $81 on a weekend.)

Conditions were excellent, putting my private club Lehigh CC to absolute shame.

[A_Clay_Man]

Bill- How about giving us a rant on what and why Pebble Beach is one of your favorites?

 

[A_Clay_Man]

Besides trying to help de-bug your dsl, I was really interested in your apparent disdain for Pebble. And please be frank.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Glad to see you finally got play the Black -- why did it take you sooooooooooooooo long?

Many who post here on GCA have been long time players at the Black -- I have probably played no less than 200 rounds since my teens and can remember VIVIDLY the rubber mats on the tees and how grass grew by accident rather than by design.

Bill -- just how good is the chain reaction par-5 4th? The superb combo par-4's at the 5th and 6th? The trifecta par-4's to start the back nine -- #10, #11 and #12? And so forth and so on.

You're absolutely right -- the gigantic scale of the Black is truly something. When you consider where you begin the round and then you venture to the deepest part of the property and THEN you must make the long trek back.

I would have to say that the INTENSITY of the tee shot is always first and foremost the concern when playing the Black. If you can't hit the tee ball properly at the Black you will find yourself in for a very long day. The greens are not defended as strongly as what you find at WF / West but the tee game aspect at the Black is as strong as any of the top courses we have in the USA IMHO.

I always get a chuckle out of players playing for the first time when they finish the 14th hole they believe the long haul is over AND then they must handle the four demanding holes of #15 through #18 (although I personally believe the 18th is still a sore point for many people -- myself included). The 15th at BB is also one of the most demanding approach shots you can play -- there is no way anything will suffice but a supreme play. In the Open the stroke average at #15 was 4.60 and the hole WAS NOT played fromt he tips.

Since we just got through with Halloween I've always believed that a fitting costume for the Black would be to have the designated pro dress up as Darth Vader because unless the Force is indeed with you the course will kick anyone who is not prepared to really play.

P.S. The sad part is what you identified -- the escalating green fees. A very large number of people who play the Black (Jersey folks and elsewhere) played a role in making the case about it's inherent possibilities for a major championship. New York State jumped quickly to take advantage of the Open and within a few months of the '02 event promptly DOUBLED the out-of-state fees. Yes, I know the entire complex is state owned but the Black should not become a de facto Pebble Beach on the east coast. I can easily see the price hitting triple digits long before the '09 Open returns. The Black is indeed back -- but when the prices start to go int he direction I just mentioned -- there will be less and less of those loyal patrons who were there when the Black was indeed a woeful layout when soooooooooo very few, even locally, were aware of its potential.

[redanman]

Matt

The first tee at the Black is  Joe Q. Public's American version of the first tee at the Old Course.

Yes or No?

[Matt_Ward]

redanman:

I concede points #1 and #3 -- but not with #2. You can analyze it from a match play perspective or by a grouping of the par classification and the Black is no less than a draw IMHO.

PB gets plenty of mileage with the v-i-e-w but the core qualities of solid golf are no less apparent at the Black. I remember all those armchair quarterback types who believed the Black would play like a Hope venue and suffer some really low scores. If memory serves -- Tiger was -3.  

[GeoffreyC]

Bill

Glad to see you got to play the Black and on such a great BONUS weather day for us back east.

After speaking with you on the 9th tee I forget to ask you about what is one of the best tee shots on the course.

Also, you may be correct about the land on 10-12 being more bland but 10 and 11 especially are really heathland in quality and again, the tee shot on #11 is a fantastic example of hitting to an invisable target and trusting your line which is NOT a direct one to the center of the green which is visible.

What is your impression of the scale of the bunkering and their play as hazards?

[A_Clay_Man]

This then leads me to question How a municipal agency can enter the market and compete against a for profit private entity? The lamenting of the loss of the 'people' who are now crowded out, is a perfect example of a "spirit" that these bureaucrats have sucked dry. Is that where golf should be?

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

I do agree that the 1st at BB is really Joe Sixpack's version of the 1st at The Old Course. It's also quite intimidating for people to tee off when a good number of onlookers are scanning your group and wondering whether you have the wherewithal to tackle this gem of a layout.

I just wish people would see the lack as being more than just some hideous long course. I've heard this from a few people but it belies the creativity one must have in order to score there.

Geoff mentions about the scale of the bunkers and to add to that -- I can remember seeing a D-6 bulldozer rake sand in the 4th and 7th holes on separate occasions.

P.S. You're right big guy -- I should have gotten you on a long time ago! Many pardons.

Adam:

The folks in NY State are entitled to set whatever fees they want -- the out-of-state guys like me and others have no impact on the bureaucrats who are responsible only to the voters of NY State. Think of it this way -- if Pinon Hills had the wherewithal to host an Open and decided to double the out-of-state fees for people like me would the folks who live in Farmington give a rats ass for people like me? It's no different my friend.

The sad part is that the success of the course is now filtering throughout the globe but the people who were loyal for the longest of times are now watching from the sidelines because the fees are now starting to escalate. On the flip side it is a joy to behold the turf conditions that exist at the Black today. I intereviewed countless players during the '02 Open and to a man they are truly overwhelmed that a muni could rise to the level it has.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Bill,

You weren't alone in certain well-traveled and well-connected folks not having played the Black.  Another here has played mostly everything that counts on LI, but has still never played the Black, AFAIK.  Me?  The Black and one other muni (MDSP) on LI is all I've played.    

If only my vacation and business trips would take me there.

[Mike_Sweeney]

This then leads me to question How a municipal agency can enter the market and compete against a for profit private entity? The lamenting of the loss of the 'people' who are now crowded out, is a perfect example of a "spirit" that these bureaucrats have sucked dry. Is that where golf should be?

Adam,

Please note Redanman's comparison of Bethpage to Pebble Beach, and the conditioning to his own club. Other comparibles locally are Shinnecock, Winged Foot West and maybe Baltusrol which it has probably replaced on The Open rotation. It is that good. No municipal course is comparible IMHO. If they whack a Jersey guy like Matt   for $81, that still seems very fair when compared to Pebble @ $350 and $500+ for an outing at any of the private courses listed above. In addition, the better public courses on Long Island are in that range and above, it is expensive real estate out there.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Redanman,

I know you did not see it before, but your thoughts on Rees work beyond # 18 ?

PS. I thought he did a great job under his parameters to build/re-build (not restore) a US Open course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

I would have prefered it if they left the bunkers in behind  the 18th green.

I realize that it now allows stands for fans to have a view, but, with a tournament coming once every 7-13 years for four days, I think they should have retained them.

[Eric_Dorsey]

pics?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redanman,

How different are the current bunkers on # 18 fairway,
from the previous fairway bunkers on # 18 ?

[Jamie_Duffner]

Nothing like a good BB thread to get me to post for the first time in several weeks and Redanman's first trip around the place no less.  Too bad you didn't get a round in on the Red, another outstadning course.

The blunt description of 18 made me laugh, but has anyone heard of the proposal for 18 for the 09 open?  I've heard a new tee over by the first green of the red.  Yikes, that makes the hole something like 475, just what the back nine needs, another long par 4.  I guess the only redeeming quality of the idea is that it makes for a diagonal sort of carry of the right side bunkers, sort of in character with other holes.  But, jeez, what a long walk over to that tee.  Couldn't they come up with something better?  Like bulldoze some fairway bunkers.  

I hope they leave 14 alone, no need to shove a brutish par 3 in the mix.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jamie,

I think the mistake that most people make when looking at #18 is that they forget about the previous 17 holes, especially the last 8.

The 18th hole was designed by Tillinghast as a short par 4, and that should be the end of the argument.

The hole has to be looked at in the context of all 18 holes.

And, I completely agree with you regarding # 14. leave it alone.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat is quite correct about the 18th being a short concluding hole. The idea that every Open, or nearly every one, must have a monster like long par-4 serve as the closer is a cliche that needs to be put to rest.

The version of #18 by Rees Jones was the best I guess one could do given the limitations for the first Open. However, the '09 Open doesn't need to once again prop up such a boring concluding hole. This has been mentioned many times on GCA and I for one would love to see a bit of creativity that allows for a short par-4 and the possibility of someone actually driving the green -- albeit with a Herculean blow.

The Black has a number of gauntlet like holes and having some type of change of pace at the final hole could take the Open championship in '09 to a completely higher level.

Mike Sweeney:

Yes, $81 is still a bargain , but where / when will it stop? Now that the NY politicians see Bethpage as a cash cow it behooves them to understand that BB should not become a de facto Pebble Beach. However, I'll be sure to see pigs fly before they understand what I just said. Try getting a tee time at the Black NOW. It used to be possible (I was one of those folks who routinely slept in the parking lot) but now the in-state reservation system simply eats away a significant chunk of tee times. I'm thinking it might be best to contact Perry Golf and get tee times that way.

[GeoffreyC]

Matt

The Black course is not a cash cow nor will it ever be so. I believe you or any other out of state resident can still sleep in your car and get a tee time. Stop your whining about this and be grateful that the course is still open to non-residents.  Sleeping in your car is still the only realistic way most anyone outside of the immediate telephone exchange area of Bethpage can hope to compete for times.  The milisecond advantage of the switches at the telephone exchange seem to make all the difference when trying to get through the reservation system. So, you out of state players still have as good a chance of playing the Black as most anyone except those living in the immediate vicinity of the course. Is that true of state courses in NJ for a NY resident (Francis Byrne?)

The simple fact is that NO out of town players will ever become "regulars" at the Black course and the occasional payment of $81 on a weekend is a bargain. Your 200 rounds at $20 per round (my guess at your average price) over the years hardly paid for upkeep nor did my 60 or so rounds. NY State residents should get a break given our tax burden.

[Matt_Ward]

Geoff:

Wait a second partner -- there's no whine. NY State decided to sock it to the non-residents and that's their prerogative. I can disagree with this no less than if the Black were in Jersey and the politicians here did the same. I'm a golfer first and foremost -- not a state resident who sees only the parochial side of the issue. I would just urge those who are NY residents to watch carefully when the rates for you folks also rises and when it does let me know if the screams and howls I hear are whines.

Yes, I did get a bargain for the 200+ rounds I played but let's not forget Geoff I often played off rubber mats and the grass in the fairway (if it existed at all) was no lower than the rough on the periphery. You also needed to take a full shoulder turn on many of the greens!

I also take issue with you about being "regulars" at BB. I was often quizzed by my friends on this side of the Hudson about why I went to BB each and every weekend during the summers for years. The reason was a simple one no different than what Hillary said about Everest -- "because it's there." There were / are plenty of people who trekked to BB as often as I and they did so because you could see the greatness in BB and a few of the other courses at the facility (Red & Blue for sure). It was "we" out of area folks who trumpeted the Black no matter where we went and played. Now I laugh when all these people finally go to the Black and say, "wow -- what a course."

[GeoffreyC]

Matt

Correct.  And today you have the same possibility of sleeping overnight to get a foresome as a NJ resident as I do as a NY resident. You can get a regular foresome and each of you can get a time onece per month and you play weekly. Your access is about the same as mine given that the phone reservation system is rigged for telephone exchanges nearby Bethpage. The only catch is that as a non-taxpaying NJ resident you pay a bit more.  That's more then fair as in many other states a NY resident couldn't hope to get a tee time without knowing a Huckaby, Naccarato or other well connected golf maven   .

Matt, I payed those same fees for years and endured the dirt tees and fairways, beach sand and greens that rolled like pothole infested construction sites.  I'm happy that its better now and I don't believe the fees will ever exclude the working class regulars that supported the facility for decades.

[Matt_Ward]

Geoff said ... "I'm happy that its better now and I don't believe the fees will ever exclude the working class regulars that supported the facility for decades."

This is the same assertion told to the indians about being the last stop BEFORE they were routinely bumped to the next reservation. I'd watch very carefully the fee structure at BB because the politicians can't jump fast enough seeing how much $$ was really available at the facility. These are the same folks who would not know Tillinghast from Ralph Kramden.

Ask yourself this -- why do the folks in and around the area of Bethpage get through faster anyway? If BB is truly a State Park what about the fairness for some guy who lives in the Buffalo area?

This whole idea of "exclusion" flies in the face of me being a
g-o-l-f-e-r first and foremost. I don't like it when my state does no less than when NY does it. Two wrongs don't make a right. The State of NY has to tread lightly on state residents NOW because the USGA insisted upon rates being kept reasonable before they invested the millions into turning around the Black. Eventually, those rates will rise and it will take public pressure, from all people regardless of residence, to keep things in perspective.

Geoff -- I know how looooooooooooong it took to turn things around and making sure the gains made to date aren't flipped on their head (either price wise or condition wide) will need people to watch closely. Nothing more -- nothing less IMHO.

[Thomas_Brown]

Matt - Re: Hillary & Everest.
I'm not that familiar w/ NY Politics - What did Hillary Clinton say about Bethpage?

Oh - the other Hillary.

[Phil_the_Author]

Matt,

I believe that the price structure is for New York STATE residents and every one else is a non-resident. This allows for Joe Q. Public in Buffalo to call in 7 days prior like everyone else in the state for a tee time and the in-state price.

Also, for those who have been asking when it is being published, my book on the 2002 U.S. Open, Golf's Finest Hour: The Open at the Black, is being released by my publisher, Classics of Golf, at the PGA Merchandise Show at the end of January.

He is going to be producing a special edition including a specially designed slip case cover, for sale at Bethpage and New York State Parks only.

If anyone is going to be at the Golf Collectors Society National meeting in November in Florida, we will be their with brochures announcing and describing the book for any and all to see.

Thanks for all who have been of great encouragement and help to me on this project.

Phil Young

[Jamie_Duffner]

One thing to remember about this greens fee debate is that there is one heckuva a "black" market (no pun intended) to play the black.  There are services in NYC that will guarantee a foursome and limo to the course from Manhattan for about $400/person.  You know when out of towners come in and have some investment banker or Wall St broker at their beck and call, they're asking "can you get me on the Black?"  Heck, it's no more expensive than a foursome at Le Bernadin!

18 - a nice, strategically bunkered, 340ish par 4 would just be brilliant.  The sort of hole where a 2 is not out of the question, but a 5 is certainly in the mix.  

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