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Sven Nilsen

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CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« on: April 03, 2015, 10:39:55 AM »
I posted this in the Mysteries thread, but I'm sure the minutiae there has turned some folks off.

The first article below is taken from the Feb. 1917 edition of Golf Illustrated.  It lists a number of courses designed by Charles Blair MacDonald prior to that date, including a private course for Otto Kahn.  We know about Oheka (lka as Coldstream) on Long Island, which is credited to Seth Raynor in 1923 (with Kahn doing much of the bunker work).  So what course is the article discussing?

There's an old thread in which Steve Shaffer linked to a New York Times article from July 7, 1920 discussing the sale of Kahn's Morristown, NJ estate and his plans to move to his new Cold Spring Harbor property on Long Island.  The article notes the existence of an 18 hole course at "Cedar Court."  I've also attached a modern aerial of the location of Cedar Court.

Was this an unknown CBM design?






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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2015, 11:46:56 AM »
They were right in the neighborhood at the time, so it could be possible that they stopped in at Cedar Court, although it's not part of the CBM/SR timeline.
A view of the house form the course:




Hard to find any remnants of it in this 1930 aerial:
 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 11:52:49 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2015, 12:00:41 PM »
Jim:

Those are Whigham's words in the article I posted.  At that point (1917), Oheka wasn't even on the radar.  Kahn's estate leading up to his 1920 move to Long Island was Cedar Court.

CBM and Raynor were working at Morris County (just next door) around that time.

So we have Whigham stating that by 1917 CBM had designed a private estate course for Otto Kahn.  We also know that Kahn's Cedar Court estate in Morristown had an 18 hole golf course on its grounds.

It isn't beyond reason that Kahn would have hired the CBM/Raynor team twice, once in New Jersey and once after he moved to a friendlier neighborhood in Cold Springs Harbor.

When he moved, the estate was used as a psychiatric hospital.  From the looks of it, the course went by the wayside.

Sven

« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 12:22:15 PM by Sven Nilsen »
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2015, 12:03:27 PM »
An image of the estate building at Cedar Court, with the golf course in the foreground -

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2015, 12:07:34 PM »
Here's the blog from which the course/house photo I posted came from. It has more of the house and grounds.
 

http://halfpuddinghalfsauce.blogspot.com/2013/04/cedar-court-morristown-new-jersey.html
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Nigel Islam

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2015, 12:16:23 PM »
I think any area accessed by a road called "Punchbowl Road" would be destined to have two MacRaynor courses. Is the building NE of the Morris County CC and the grounds where the estate was? It looks like it could be a hospital.
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2015, 12:19:02 PM »
Nigel:

You have the right location.  The property was converted to a psychiatric hospital in the early 20's, and was later bought by Allied Chemical.

Sven

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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2015, 12:20:35 PM »
Sven,

I agree with your premise.

Jim,

As always, you seem to find great photos.
What leads me to believe the area you've defined was a golf course are the vast open areas.

That neighborhood is/was heavily wooded, yet vast areas are cleared with what looks like some sparse cedars or firs
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Nigel Islam

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2015, 12:22:01 PM »
Sven and Jim, do you guys see any footprints of the golf course? I am having a hard time convincing myself of this.

The links Jim posted specifically said the golf course was to the NORTH of the estate, and also that Morris County CC would not let Otto Kahn join. Both of these would rule out the existing Morris County Country Club as the course referenced in addition to the fact that the CC predated Cedar Court anyway.
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2015, 12:26:34 PM »
Kahn purchsed the land on LI in 1915 (I believe) and was building (possibly done with) the house by 1917. In retrospect, it doesn't seem plausible that OK would have had a course constructed in NJ at the same time, even though CBM/SR were 'in town'.

If he did, it seems like it would have been much earlier than 1915.

Pat,
If you open the blog you'll see the caption to the photo says it's a view from the golf course.
  
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 12:28:54 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2015, 12:28:26 PM »
Nigel:

Jim's aerial is pretty clear.  The estate house was located just to the north of the northern most green at Morris County (bottom middle of the green box he added).  That would put the course in the cleared areas to the north (also included in the green box.

Sven
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Nigel Islam

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2015, 12:30:56 PM »
I agree with that Sven. What I meant is usually I can imagine a greensite or two even after 95 years, but I can't seem to do that. I agree with both you and Pat that the tree clearing is suspicious for a "ghost" golf course.
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2015, 12:31:37 PM »
Quote from: Jim_Kennedy on April 03, 2015, 12:26:34 PM
Kahn purchsed the land on LI in 1915 (I believe) and was building (possibly done with) the house by 1917. In retrospect, it doesn't seem plausible that OK would have had a course constructed in NJ at the same time, even though CBM/SR were 'in town'.

If he did, it seems like it would have been much earlier than 1915.

Pat,
If you open the blog you'll see the caption to the photo says it's a view from the golf course.
  

Jim:

The Whigham quote doesn't give us a specific date, just that the course was built before Feb. of 1917.

Bahto has 1922-23 as the date for the work on the Long Island course.

Sven
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Nigel Islam

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2015, 12:35:17 PM »
There have to be at least a couple dozen undiscovered Raynors. Even my most liberal counting of Raynor's known work comes in under 100.
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2015, 12:50:20 PM »
To be more clear: the MCGC was started in 1917 - Kahn owned the LI property in 1915 and built his estate by 1917 - Whigham could very well have been referencing the Cedar Court course, or OK and CBM could have already agreed that CBM/SR would build OK a course on his new estate in LI and that's what Whigham was talking about.

As George wrote in TEOG, CBM wasn't a fan of building private estate courses, and the fact that there aren't any easily seen remains of the Cedar Court course ten years after Kahn moved out doesn't lend itself to the idea that anything of great substance was put there in the first place, at least not by CBM.    

Not saying he didn't, and it'd be cool (and a nice find) if he did, but more convincing needed.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 12:57:37 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2015, 12:55:55 PM »
I did find a 1908 book on famous estates that notes the existence of the golf course (to the north of the house).

That date gives me a bit of pause.

I'd like more information on when the Oheka project started.  The use of the words "engineered the construction" by Whigham makes me think the course he was discussing had already been built.
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2015, 01:08:14 PM »
A bit more info to add to the mystery.

Cedar Court was originally owned by Abraham Wolf(f).

An Aug. 25, 1898 The Sun article notes a 9 hole course was laid out on the Wolf(f) Estate near Morris County GC.

Wolf(f) is noted in the New York Times article above, which also mentions that at that time the course had 18 holes.


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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2015, 01:14:41 PM »
There is no mystery as to the reason for Kahn's moving his country estate from Morristown to Long Island:

As was typical for men of his stature of the era, Kahn maintained both a New York City residence and a home in the country. Kahn's original country home, a gift from his father-in-law, was in Morristown, New Jersey.[12] Although a resident there for a number of years and a business associate of many of his neighbors, antisemitism was still prevalent and Kahn was never accepted by Morristown society. Social rejection led him to move to Long Island and his New Jersey estate ultimately became home to Honeywell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Hermann_Kahn


Otto Kahn was the most influential patron of the arts....

http://uncpress.unc.edu/browse/page/261
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2015, 01:37:30 PM »
Two possibilities that I see at this point.

1.  Whigham was discussing Oheka.  In this case, the beginnings of that project stretch back much further than I thought with MacDonald starting the design process around the same time Kahn was buying the property and conceiving his plans for the new estate.

2.  Whigham was discussing Cedar Court.  If this is true, CBM may have been responsible for reworking the existing 1898 9 hole course and expanding it into an 18 hole layout.

In any case, CBM's involvement with Otto Kahn predates Feb. 1917.

Sven
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"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2015, 05:21:24 PM »
Sven,

If you go to HistoricAerials.com and view the 1957 version, what looks like bunker remnants appear above and below the pond.

Perhaps someone with better eyes can more accurately identify what those features are.
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John Emerson

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2020, 10:52:49 PM »
I have really good pics from 1895 with the caption "Morristown Golf Club, New Jersey"....would this be the Kahn course?  There is one pic with a clubhouse and it does not look anything like the picture of the house posted above in the thread.  Being that it is 1895 the options of what it is are very small.  Anyone want to see them?
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Bret Lawrence

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Re: CBM, Otto Kahn and New Jersey?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2020, 09:08:46 AM »
John,


I'd love to see the pictures you have of Morristown Golf Club from 1895.  Morristown Golf Club is what we know of today as Morris County Golf Club.  Here is an article from 1894 with a picture of the clubhouse and a routing of the men's and ladies nines.


https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030272/1894-06-03/ed-1/seq-17/


It appears Raynor and Macdonald built Otto Kahn's private estate course in Long Island closer to 1917.  There are pictures of a finished course in a 1919 publication and the Olmsted Archives have maps of the golf course dated 1917.  There is no evidence Raynor and Macdonald built a course at Cedar Court.  They did however redesign Morris County Golf Club around the same time they were working on Oheka, as Jim Kennedy mentioned earlier in the thread.


Bret



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