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Mark Pearce

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2020, 06:50:55 AM »
I guess it depends if you're interest is only in the courses, or in the culture as well.  For the life of me, I can't understand being given the chance to immerse yourself in the "Muirfield" experience (substitute whichever other great UK club you want) and passing it up because all that matters is the course.  I have been lucky enough to play a few of the world's great courses but my happiest memories of some aren't on the course.  It's chatting with the head pro at CPC, then having a drink in the members bar afterwards, it's having a sandwich and a beer with my host at Kingston Heath, dinner and some really fine wine with my host at NSW.  HCEG, Prestwick etc. allow you to enjoy the clubhouses and soak in the atmosphere.  HCEG allow you to go out again and play alternate ball.  Why not take that up, just for the sake of rushing to another course?  Seems lunacy to me.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2020, 07:16:19 AM »
I guess it depends if you're interest is only in the courses, or in the culture as well.  For the life of me, I can't understand being given the chance to immerse yourself in the "Muirfield" experience (substitute whichever other great UK club you want) and passing it up because all that matters is the course.  I have been lucky enough to play a few of the world's great courses but my happiest memories of some aren't on the course.  It's chatting with the head pro at CPC, then having a drink in the members bar afterwards, it's having a sandwich and a beer with my host at Kingston Heath, dinner and some really fine wine with my host at NSW.  HCEG, Prestwick etc. allow you to enjoy the clubhouses and soak in the atmosphere.  HCEG allow you to go out again and play alternate ball.  Why not take that up, just for the sake of rushing to another course?  Seems lunacy to me.


Yes,


I think even on the busiest of run-around golf trips, it’s best to limit yourself to one club per day.


I’ve been guilty of 36 at different courses in the past but the above is my rule for the last few years because those days are by far the most rewarding, spending 12 hours as a “day member”.


To Sean’s point, I’m guessing most of us only have a handful of great courses we’ve played 10 times or more. There’s quite a few I have played over 5 rounds on. But not many that reach double figures. Then again, I don’t play nearly enough.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2020, 07:45:39 AM »
The local news in Florida just interviewed some pissed off tri-chinned fatso about his 15% Covid surcharge at the local pancake house. Another beaut was upset about paying for PPE at the dentist. Business trying to operate at 50% or less capacity are going to need some help. It's going to be a long angry road.


I don't even want to think about getting stuck on a tarmac with these people.

David Davis

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2020, 08:28:26 AM »
I guess it depends if you're interest is only in the courses, or in the culture as well.  For the life of me, I can't understand being given the chance to immerse yourself in the "Muirfield" experience (substitute whichever other great UK club you want) and passing it up because all that matters is the course.  I have been lucky enough to play a few of the world's great courses but my happiest memories of some aren't on the course.  It's chatting with the head pro at CPC, then having a drink in the members bar afterwards, it's having a sandwich and a beer with my host at Kingston Heath, dinner and some really fine wine with my host at NSW.  HCEG, Prestwick etc. allow you to enjoy the clubhouses and soak in the atmosphere.  HCEG allow you to go out again and play alternate ball.  Why not take that up, just for the sake of rushing to another course?  Seems lunacy to me.


Makes total sense but do you actually know people that would pass up a full day at a Muirfield or a Cypress Point etc just to run off to play another 18? I can only think of maybe 2 people I know that are total golf course junkies that for example if skiers would have as a goal each and every day to log as many vertical feet as humanly possible no matter where they were skiing. Same essence really don't you think?


However, in the rare chance you are invited for the full whammy like you are suggesting even these guys that try to make every day of a trip, your 100 hole hike still wouldn't pass up what you are suggesting here.


I'm definitely guilting of having some crazy trips where I wanted to see as many courses as possible during a 2 week period for example, and those even included 54 hole days of walking 3 rounds. Usually those were only in the UK actually, and I wasn't being invited for full days at one of the famous places but more trying to see as many second tier (matter of opinion) courses as possible. Example would be playing, West Cornwall at 7 am, Perranporth after, having lunch at Trevose then playing a final 18 at Trevose on a beautiful afternoon. Seems crazy but was a really relaxed and enjoyable day even though I had to play West Cornwall alone which I normally don't love to do. In retrospect that was smart and way better than not seeing it at all as I would of missed out big time on a course I would of otherwise not likely travelled to see.


To Sean's point, I'd guess there aren't many courses I've been fortunate enough to see 10x myself. Heck even if you move the target to 5 that would be a smaller list but definitely not because I don't want to see them that many times, more because I've always wanted to see and study as much as possible, no matter what it all comes at great expense, both in time as well as money and travel costs. Makes sense that most of the courses you would see often are the ones that are closer to home. So I've seen courses like Utrecht De Pan, Royal Hague, Eindhovensche etc far more than most others courses that require a flight (which is almost everything). One thing absolutely true beyond a shadow of doubt is that the more I see a course (maybe a great course given my examples) the more I enjoy those courses. With every round I play on De Pan and at Royal Hague I like the courses more and more.


I have played a majority of my UK based golf in the shoulder season as well. I think it's my favorite time to travel and play there. March for example has always been great and yes, rough is down, less people, cheaper in all respects etc etc. Perhaps if we can even get to the UK later this year, the entire year will be like shoulder season. I really don't see too many American's jumping in planes in the next few months.
Sharing the greatest experiences in golf.

IG: @top100golftraveler
www.lockharttravelclub.com

Sean_A

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2020, 08:41:56 AM »
Comparing as a way of judging also may be overplayed. While it's natural for many to compare, some are content to simply look at what is in the ground and go from there. There isn't an inherent necessity to judge beyond like/dislike, enjoy/not, worth the time, money & effort/not, return/not. Even that isn't necessary if we accept each experience is unique and therefore a matter of fact.

However, my initial point is hit and runners seem to not include themselves as such...when of course they too are hit and runners....or not very experienced .

Ciao
Sean just doing a binary judgement is possible, but in today's day and age of comparisons, rankings (personal or public), competition for fees/members a judgment is probably made consciously or not. It happens perhaps without you knowing it..... I ask you, "Sean what is the best course to play within 30 minutes of your home, regardless of price/access?." We give an opinion because someone asks. We may very well offer a few, but in the end the person has to select one to play.

Same with planning golf trips, we have X number of days and most times, the cost in both time/money is an investment where we want a maximum return.  I'm not going to go to St. Andrews and skip TOC if I can help it.

I look at my views on golf course as a continuum, where my opinion is influenced the more I learn and see/experience.

I agree, it's very difficult if not impossible to set aside experience and preference and try to look at a course for what it is. But I think it's probably important to try if one is interested in all sorts of architecture. I try, but I don't believe I am that interested in all types of architecture...which is a major drawback if one is trying to be objective.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David_Elvins

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2020, 08:53:48 AM »
Thanks for sharing the piece David. I had good fun researching it.


Nice work David.  One added thing of interest, I think, is that by the year 2000 there had already been a significant boom with prices rising up to 400% in the ten years prior to 2000


Here are some prices from 1990:


Carnoustie: £19 (£80 for a weekly ticket)
Cruden Bay: £12 (£75 for a fortnight)
Dornoch: £17 (£70 weekly ticket)
The Old Course: £16.50
Royal Troon: £30 daily
Royal Aberdeen: £11
Muirfield: £30 (£40 daily)






Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Kalen Braley

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2020, 10:40:21 AM »
I find it interesting that hit and runners are being disparaged, but yet so many clubs in the UK gleefully gouge them to keep their annual dues ridiculously low.  Curious what percentage of annual club revenue comes from these alleged degenerates...

Jeff Schley

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2020, 10:53:56 AM »
I find it interesting that hit and runners are being disparaged, but yet so many clubs in the UK gleefully gouge them to keep their annual dues ridiculously low.  Curious what percentage of annual club revenue comes from these alleged degenerates...
Great Kalen...... now the Red Coats are coming!  Remember 1 if by land, 2 if by sea. ;D
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Sean_A

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2020, 10:58:05 AM »
I find it interesting that hit and runners are being disparaged, but yet so many clubs in the UK gleefully gouge them to keep their annual dues ridiculously low.  Curious what percentage of annual club revenue comes from these alleged degenerates...


Its difficult to claim one is gouged when paying the fee is voluntary. If you can't afford an Aston Martin buy a Ford.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2020, 11:01:18 AM »
I find it interesting that hit and runners are being disparaged, but yet so many clubs in the UK gleefully gouge them to keep their annual dues ridiculously low.  Curious what percentage of annual club revenue comes from these alleged degenerates...

Its difficult to claim one is gouged when paying the fee is voluntary. If you can't afford an Aston Martin buy a Ford.

Ciao

Agreed Sean,

Was going for sarcasm but may have failed.  I think the overall point thou is valid, clubs should be glad for hit and runners, last thing they want is them lurking about after the round...  ;)


P.S.  Jeff, those numbers sound about right.  But how many if by air thou...4?

Thomas Dai

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2020, 01:40:03 PM »
I'm not convinced about the merit of comparing prices and costs over more than short time periods. Circumstances change. Supply and demand changes. Inflation etc occurs. Expectations alter. Just numbers really. A modern version of bartering... .. you have, I want or I have, you want .. money is just a medium of exchange. No Gold Standard any more. Many a printing press though.
atb
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 02:18:43 PM by Thomas Dai »

Sean_A

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2020, 02:47:04 PM »
The price comparisons are very interesting to me. Because the fees are so much higher than inflation, it makes me wonder where the money was spent. What exactly is driving up the cost and are the line items luxury or necessity.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff Schley

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2020, 03:15:07 PM »
To know where the money actually is going it would be helpful to juxtapose the annual subs for members at all those courses. Only then will we know the which bucket is bringing home the bacon. I'm sure the members subs increase yearly is minimal compared to the visitors fees at these top clubs.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jon Wiggett

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #88 on: May 24, 2020, 03:17:52 PM »

Sean,


lots spent on clubhouses and surrounding infrastructure. Also usually an increase in the number of greens staff and machinery and a massive hike in the budget for machines, irrigation, etc... Does the extra money give a better golfing experience? I am not convinced it does.

Sean_A

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #89 on: May 24, 2020, 04:13:42 PM »
To know where the money actually is going it would be helpful to juxtapose the annual subs for members at all those courses. Only then will we know the which bucket is bringing home the bacon. I'm sure the members subs increase yearly is minimal compared to the visitors fees at these top clubs.

In my area I would say member dues have gone up about 250 to 300% in the past 20 years.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2020, 04:33:55 PM »
Does anyone know what the percentage breakdown is for the average club of members vs visitors?  More than half of annual revenue?

David_Tepper

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #91 on: May 24, 2020, 04:43:04 PM »
Kalen -

My guess is visitor revenue (especially revenue from overseas visitors) varies widely among clubs in GB&I. It would be hard to generalize. Instead of the 80/20 rule, my guess is 90% of the visitor green fees spent in GB&I goes to just 10% of the golf clubs there.


DT

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2020, 05:25:44 PM »
Does anyone know what the percentage breakdown is for the average club of members vs visitors?  More than half of annual revenue?


It varies wildly from club to club.


Your average club in the suburbs of a major city has a lot of members paying high fees but very few visitors.


Meanwhile a club with a renowned  course in the middle of nowhere might have few members paying very little in subs but take the bulk of their revenue in green fees.


I guess the average is somewhere in between.



Sean_A

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #93 on: May 24, 2020, 06:12:36 PM »
Does anyone know what the percentage breakdown is for the average club of members vs visitors?  More than half of annual revenue?

Over 50% revenue for green fees would be very few UK clubs.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #94 on: May 24, 2020, 06:19:25 PM »
Does anyone know what the percentage breakdown is for the average club of members vs visitors?  More than half of annual revenue?

Over 50% revenue for green fees would be very few UK clubs.

Ciao
Very few indeed.  Probably not even all the Open rota courses.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #95 on: May 24, 2020, 07:02:40 PM »
UK clubs have multiple sources of revenue, but if you are comparing membership fees versus visitor & guest fees I think the split would be 60/40 in favor of membership fees.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jon Wiggett

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #96 on: May 25, 2020, 04:21:56 AM »
UK clubs have multiple sources of revenue, but if you are comparing membership fees versus visitor & guest fees I think the split would be 60/40 in favor of membership fees.



I doubt that the true figure is much more than 10% with the average members club Mike.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2020, 04:30:42 AM »
Does anyone know what the percentage breakdown is for the average club of members vs visitors?  More than half of annual revenue?

Over 50% revenue for green fees would be very few UK clubs.

Ciao


I’m not so sure.


At Conwy green fees account for 50% of income. At Cavendish it’s 40%. Those are two clubs I’ve got the accounts for.


Off the top of my head I can say with some certainty that green fee income exceeds membership income at Harlech, Silloth, Dornoch, and Machrihanish.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 04:32:15 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2020, 04:50:31 AM »
Does anyone know what the percentage breakdown is for the average club of members vs visitors?  More than half of annual revenue?

Over 50% revenue for green fees would be very few UK clubs.

Ciao
We are 50/50 visitor and membership. We have lost 261 bookings due to Covid 19, that 261 comprise golf society bookings, weddings, parties, conferences. £389,000 behind. Also I average 10 bookings for socities per week and have done 3 in about 11 weeks. All totally understandable, 12 chaps off golf for 3 days, 2 nights, few pints, meals is not going to happen at the moment, but I expect the phone will be busy when it is ok. The big problem is that clubs make the hay in the summer 7 months and lose money in the winter, we are going to lose half the summer. At the moment all our courses are full up but with two balls its only half full. At April 1st we had lost 26% of our membership 194 members, we are now at 107 down. Probably have taken 70 new ones. Green Fees we are taking about £1000 per day per course. Having the clubhouse shut is a big saving as it is a big lossmaker.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

David Jones

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Re: The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees
« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2020, 05:25:40 AM »
Thanks for sharing the piece David. I had good fun researching it.


Nice work David.  One added thing of interest, I think, is that by the year 2000 there had already been a significant boom with prices rising up to 400% in the ten years prior to 2000


Here are some prices from 1990:


Carnoustie: £19 (£80 for a weekly ticket)
Cruden Bay: £12 (£75 for a fortnight)
Dornoch: £17 (£70 weekly ticket)
The Old Course: £16.50
Royal Troon: £30 daily
Royal Aberdeen: £11
Muirfield: £30 (£40 daily)


Many thanks for this David. These are absolutely fascinating and you're right - the real damage was done in the '90s by the looks of this. To give you an idea had Carnoustie increased in line with inflation since 1990 the £19 would now be £45 rather than the £252 that it is. The ship would appear to have well and truly sailed!


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