The UKGolfGuy on UK Green Fees

[John Handley]

I am already planning a Scotland trip for 12 guys in Sept 2021.  I have been able to secure 2 days of golf at Muirfield which I am thrilled about. In times past, those would have already been booked.


Pretty epic trip though:
GOLF
Prestwick
Turnberry Ailsa
Turnberry Ailsa
Royal Troon
Muirfield
Renaissance Club
Muirfield
North Berwick


We are staying at Turnberry then Renaissance.  Since we will be in residence at RC, I'd expect some afternoon rounds as well.


Can't wait!!

[Sean_A]

Yes, Troon was noticeably dear...and unfriendly. Felt a bit like being at the McDonald's of upper end golf. It was a very obvious money grab.

To be fair, they are all "money grabs".  The difference is that Royal Troon's members would generally prefer not to have a lot of visitors so the members can play whenever they want, so they try to get their money with as many caveats as possible . . . rather like Muirfield, actually.

By contrast, St. Andrews and Carnoustie and North Berwick are municipal courses, and the town's priorities are all about getting people to come and stay in town.

I think Troon is very different these days!  When I was there, golfers were herded down a hallway to pay a green fee at a desk.  It didn't matter that I had a tee time....they put me out with some other chaps at least 30 minutes late. While it had a terrible rep, Muirfield was very welcoming and friendly.  I have never come across a reception like that one at Troon....dreadful public relations.  The other place I found distinctly unfriendly was Co Down. But these were rare instances, which is why they stand out so strong in my memory.  These days, St Andrews probably stands out as not overly friendly...or at least very corporate.  Keeping to big name courses, generally, the English clubs are much more like visiting a real club.  They usually strike a good balance between friendly smarmy  . 

BTW...if the town priorities of N Berwick and Carnoustie are about keeping the golfers in town, judging by the lack of accomodation, they aren't doing very well.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean,


Maybe that's just what the members at Royal Troon are like.


 I can't recall ever meeting one - whereas, by comparison, I have hosted members feom Prestwick and Muirfield at Crystal Downs.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Maybe that's just what the members at Royal Troon are like.

 I can't recall ever meeting one - whereas, by comparison, I have hosted members feom Prestwick and Muirfield at Crystal Downs.

I think that was part of the point. Minimal interaction between members and visitors. Muirfield is somewhat the same using two days a week for visitors so members can easily avoid the crowd. But when I have been to Muirfield there were members there as well. One group of members I sat with said they liked the buzz when visitors were around.

From a member PoV, I think Muirfield probably does it best. Essentially sacrifice a few days a week rather than visitors rolling in all days. It seems to work because when I have been the place is packed. I also like that they allow for a long lunch and the visitors to go off in the PM whenever. Classy place.

Ciao

[Richard Fisher]

100% agreement with Sean on this. One of the nicest welcomes I have ever received at a golf course anywhere was on my first visit to Muirfield in 1997, when my partner and I were greeted cheerfully by the starter with 'Good Morning Mr Fisher and welcome to Muirfield and I'll now show you where to go'. We had a blissful 36 holes, and an equally blissful lunch. Another very warm memory is of a first visit likewise to Prestwick about twenty years ago, and falling into conversation with an extremely congenial band of members who unbeknownst to us left two large kummels behind the bar for us to enjoy before going out for our second round. In the end, a club reflects its members, and I have never been keen on those facilities that enforce separate eating and drinking facilities for members and visitors (the latter being, after all, temporary members in terms of licensing legislation in some jurisdictions...).

[Mark Pearce]

100% agreement with Sean on this. One of the nicest welcomes I have ever received at a golf course anywhere was on my first visit to Muirfield in 1997, when my partner and I were greeted cheerfully by the starter with 'Good Morning Mr Fisher and welcome to Muirfield and I'll now show you where to go'. We had a blissful 36 holes, and an equally blissful lunch. Another very warm memory is of a first visit likewise to Prestwick about twenty years ago, and falling into conversation with an extremely congenial band of members who unbeknownst to us left two large kummels behind the bar for us to enjoy before going out for our second round. In the end, a club reflects its members, and I have never been keen on those facilities that enforce separate eating and drinking facilities for members and visitors (the latter being, after all, temporary members in terms of licensing legislation in some jurisdictions...).

Couldn't agree more.  Which is why if you have paid for a day at one of these clubs you are an idiot not to stay for lunch and play in the afternoon.  The number of visitors at Muirfield who play their morning fourball and leave, missing out on lunch and an afternoon of foursomes is astonishing.

[Sean_A]

100% agreement with Sean on this. One of the nicest welcomes I have ever received at a golf course anywhere was on my first visit to Muirfield in 1997, when my partner and I were greeted cheerfully by the starter with 'Good Morning Mr Fisher and welcome to Muirfield and I'll now show you where to go'. We had a blissful 36 holes, and an equally blissful lunch. Another very warm memory is of a first visit likewise to Prestwick about twenty years ago, and falling into conversation with an extremely congenial band of members who unbeknownst to us left two large kummels behind the bar for us to enjoy before going out for our second round. In the end, a club reflects its members, and I have never been keen on those facilities that enforce separate eating and drinking facilities for members and visitors (the latter being, after all, temporary members in terms of licensing legislation in some jurisdictions...).

Couldn't agree more.  Which is why if you have paid for a day at one of these clubs you are an idiot not to stay for lunch and play in the afternoon.  The number of visitors at Muirfield who play their morning fourball and leave, missing out on lunch and an afternoon of foursomes is astonishing.

The last time at Muirfield we did this!  We had a fat lunch and decided to skip the PM game and head up to Musselburgh for 3 club golf.  It was an inspired decision!  Generally though, you are right.  Its hard to understand the 36 holers running around from car park to car park...at least its hard for me to understand.

Richard, the woman behind the check in window remembered our group from 5 years earlier!  I even liked what I presume is the maitre d' at the desk.  Getting a g&t while standing in line is very civilized.   

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I recall playing 36-holes at Muirfield in the late 1980's. Very formal but welcoming.
Change for lunch and take the next seat at a very long table alongside whoever was sitting there already, which was a wonderful way to interact with some members.
atb

[Tim Gallant]

One other aside. These rates were all the summer peak green fees. Many of the others on this list offer significant discounts outside of peak but Royal Troon doesn't. I played Muirfield on a sparkling Christmas Eve last year for £100. The course was immaculate and actually more fun for me that in the height of summer as the rough was down. Glorious!

The irony is that most of these courses offer winter or shoulder season rates and most are more fun to play "out of season" when the rough is down.  The fairways are still firm but perhaps not fiery and the greens only a notch slower than in July.  I go away for a couple of days every March with some mates and take advantage of these cheaper rates and it's one of the best trips of the year.

Mark,


Couldn't agree more. I try to play the Old at least every other year, and the shoulder season is perfect in that the weather is likely to still be a bit nippy, but the rate is less, and you don't have to play off mats (which I don't really mind anyways).


Echoing David's sentiment, playing Muirfield in the winter months is a delight. The course is always in great condition, and coming in from the cold to that clubhouse is a joy.


I also agree that visitors that skip lunch and afternoon rounds are missing what is one of the most special days in golf.

[Richard Fisher]

Sean may recall the legendary lady at Muirfield then (late 1990s) in charge of visitor bookings who had the uberbrilliant name of Elspeth Mustard. I always found that if I contacted clubs like HCEG or Hoylake or Prestwick politely in the first instance (by mail, in those days), explained our handicaps and that we wanted to play a 36 hole single, with a proper lunch, almost all of these storied venues were extremely helpful - and indeed on occasions have offered us 36 holes for the price of 18. Such occasional unfriendliness as I have encountered in twenty-five years of these sorts of outings has tended to come at 'Tier Two venues', and often from younger staff members whose social skills were ( understandably) not quite fully developed. As I mentioned in my Brummy report last autumn, the famously forbidding Little Aston turned out to be one of the most helpful and welcoming clubs we have ever visited.

One interesting and I think welcome development at some of the premier venues has been the inclusion of a lunch or meal ticket with the green fee (as at Porthcawl): it all adds to a visitor experience of which a great golf course is a critical but not the only part. I have a private list of great courses which don't seem accompanied by a great club atmosphere, and conversely a list of great and atmospheric clubs playing on decent but certainly not top-tier courses...ideally (as famously at Porthcawl) you get both.

[Thomas Dai]

One aspect of established golf clubs in the UK is how much golf , ie tee-times, they give away, and usually a greater amount the higher the profile of the Club relative to their locality.
County and area matches and events for Men's, Ladies, Seniors, Juniors, Pairs, 'A'+'B' teams, regional and national matches and championships etc etc. 'Blazer events' as I've heard them referred to. And charity events and certain old boy/girl society ones too. And they all take up tee-times that can't be otherwise used by members or paying visitors etc.
Admittedly such events might provide some advertising for the Club but any non-play income, ie food and beverage, generated during there running doesn't really seem to do more than net-off against similar income that would otherwise have been gained from member and visitor f&b, not even when 'The Blazers' get stuck into the whiskey and gin!
atb

[Jon Wiggett]

I have mentioned this before that the worst experience I have ever had was with a group at Troon. It was very expensive and my group was made very aware that we were not welcome by both the members who were about and the club's illustrious secretary. I actually liked the course but will never go back after that experience.




I guess it is one of the consequences of thinking of none members as visitors or greenfee players. In the past when you paid a daily greenfee you were a day member.



On the flip side the best days golf I have ever had was at Muirfield playing on a cold January day with a couple of Swiss pros. The club treated brilliantly.

[Niall C]

I have had many happy times at Troon and have good friends who are members so feel the need to stick up for it. Yes, I've mainly played there as a guest rather than a visitor and I appreciate that can make a difference. I did however play as a visitor maybe 20 years ago and absolutely loved the experience. It was the full day playing both courses and having a very nice lunch. The clubhouse extension was not long completed if I remember correctly. All the staff were charming and helpful as were those members we met and without wishing to sound like an info commercial the day couldn't have gone better.

What I didn't appreciate at the time was that the lounge where we were had lunch was effectively the visitors lounge although the members do use it on occasion. The bar/lounge the members generally use frankly isn't nearly as nicely furnished nor is it anywhere near as big, and that I think is the real reason visitors are pointed to the large new lounge on the left when you first arrive. While this has lead to a bit of a separation between visitors and members I think it's a bit harsh on the club to knock them for that given they have spent a huge amount of money in relative terms for the added comfort and enjoyment of visitors.

With regards to the course, I can understand how hit and run golfers don't fully appreciate it as it's one of those classic old links that the more you play it the more you appreciate it. Eye candy isn't it's thing although it does have its moments. Unfortunately in terms of rankings, raters tend to be hit and run golfers.

Niall   

[Niall C]

Interesting that Troon was the lowest %tage rise on the table at 108%. Obviously if you were the highest and you're not now, the maths are simple. But why has it in effect fallen from grace, with Sean saying it was once the most expensive? Tom Doak and others have pointed to the change from a multitude of Golf Journalism to a surfeit of Golf Photography during this period.   Troon is not an easy course to capture in a lens and is perhaps therefore less alluring to the modern guy planning trips, when so many images are available for free on the internet?

Tony

There is probably an element of truth of what you say about eye candy but I'm sure there are a few spots where you could get a great photo of Troon, the Postage Stamp for instance. Indeed thinking about it, Troon maybe doesn't have the iconic shot that is used all the time in the same way that photo of RCD is. Maybe RTGC are missing a trick there ?

I think it's more about other "other factors" such as:


Royal Troon has only hosted The Open once since 2004, so it's a bit out of Americans' minds compared to the old days.


Troon only gets on the itinerary if Turnberry is, too, and the change in ownership at Turnberry has led some people to pass it up due to either the price, or the politics.


In general, I think the west coast of Scotland has been the loser for visitor green fees as more Americans head north, instead.

Tom

Yes, the Open makes a big difference in visitor numbers but not just in terms of Americans. In fact the biggest hit west coast courses have had in recent years is the demise of Prestwick airport. When the budget airlines were still using it with routes to Europe there used to be  a lot of European visitors, Scandinavians in particular, who would come over for a few days. I have seen the numbers but can't recall what they were but I think you'd be surprised how many more visitors came from there than the US.

Niall

[Jeff Johnston]

My one visit to Troon was c/o a couple of v hospitable members, who couldn't have been more gracious from start to finish (including, I'm  embarrassed to recall, changing in the champions' locker room). I also have non-hearsay knowledge of the actively unhelpful actions of the illustrious secretary back in the day (even towards members' guests) - hopefully the club has moved on.

My favourite recollection along these lines comes from The Berkshire about 15 years back. I was in the last group out c830 on a weekday morning in a few slots taken by a decent enough society - one of the members in the group behind very obviously made it his business to wander among us on the first tee ordering 'DON'T hold us up'. Delighted when all in our group belted it down the middle and we didn't see himself again.....

[MClutterbuck]

Interesting that Troon was the lowest %tage rise on the table at 108%. Obviously if you were the highest and you're not now, the maths are simple. But why has it in effect fallen from grace, with Sean saying it was once the most expensive? Tom Doak and others have pointed to the change from a multitude of Golf Journalism to a surfeit of Golf Photography during this period.   Troon is not an easy course to capture in a lens and is perhaps therefore less alluring to the modern guy planning trips, when so many images are available for free on the internet?

Tony

There is probably an element of truth of what you say about eye candy but I'm sure there are a few spots where you could get a great photo of Troon, the Postage Stamp for instance. Indeed thinking about it, Troon maybe doesn't have the iconic shot that is used all the time in the same way that photo of RCD is. Maybe RTGC are missing a trick there ?

However other factors back in the day were that price for playing Troon also included lunch and a game on the Portland. Having experienced it I can testify that the lunch wasn't just a soup and a sandwich. No matter that the Perry Golf crowd played the championship course and then buggered off, the ticket included for lunch and two games of golf and was priced accordingly.

These days I believe you can book just to play the championship so I'm not sure you are comparing like for like. One other factor that might have had a bearing is that with Open courses, the visitor numbers increase significantly just before and for a couple of years after the Open was played there. I don't know if the respective clubs tweaked there green fee accordingly.

Niall

Niall... I tend to agree Troon does not have that many photo ops, but the 1st tee is probably one of the most scenic of the top courses... I think.

[Michael Whitaker]

I think “back in the day” Troon kept its rates exorbitantly high to discourage visitor play. Their attitude seemed to be “we’ll let you play, but you’ll pay for the privilege because we don’t really want you here.” As I understand it, this attitude was personified by their infamous former secretary. Today they welcome visitors and are priced comparable to other rota courses to encourage visitation. Jerry Kluger and I had a fabulous visit this past year, albeit as a member’s guest, and it was wonderful. The reception and hospitality was as good as it gets.

[MClutterbuck]

Yes, Troon was noticeably dear...and unfriendly. Felt a bit like being at the McDonald's of upper end golf. It was a very obvious money grab.

To be fair, they are all "money grabs".  The difference is that Royal Troon's members would generally prefer not to have a lot of visitors so the members can play whenever they want, so they try to get their money with as many caveats as possible . . . rather like Muirfield, actually.


By contrast, St. Andrews and Carnoustie and North Berwick are municipal courses, and the town's priorities are all about getting people to come and stay in town.

The members I talked to at Muirfield were very friendly. Dornoch, Cruden Bay and Muirfield probably stand out as the friendliest. Troon is the only course we got yelled at by staff. And the caddie got yelled at for his part in us taking longer than 4 hours. We were the next to last last foursome of the day and allowed those after us to play through. Strange to get yelled at once you are already finished...

[Kalen Braley]

Different Strokes for different folks I guess.

If I rent an Air BnB from someone, I don't expect them to hang with me for dinner or let me sleep in thier bed. 

[Jeff Schley]

Different Strokes for different folks I guess.

If I rent an Air BnB from someone, I don't expect them to hang with me for dinner or let me sleep in thier bed. 

That is funny Kalen.

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,


I am one of the few it seems who quite like the course and think it is very underrated. I have always put this down to it been neither pretty nor having spectacular views. There can be however no doubting the quality of the GCA which is top notch.


As for playing again it maybe a bit harsh to say I would never play it again as we have discussed on a few occasions and I am sure the club is more hospitable these days. I would probably play the Portland course first though.


Jon

[Sean_A]

This business of hit and runners not really getting it is a bit overplayed. Aren't we all hit and runners except for the small number of courses we know very well?

Ciao

[Jeff Schley]

This business of hit and runners not really getting it is a bit overplayed. Aren't we all hit and runners except for the small number of courses we know very well?

Ciao

The more courses you play and see, the more knowledge and awareness you have to compare to what you have previously played and seen. This takes variety and while we all have our home courses or a small number of courses we play in a rotation, taking trips to play other courses we desire is both enjoyable and rewarding; not to mention the social aspect of sharing it with someone else many times.

[Sean_A]

Comparing as a way of judging also may be overplayed. While it's natural for many to compare, some are content to simply look at what is in the ground and go from there. There isn't an inherent necessity to judge beyond like/dislike, enjoy/not, worth the time, money & effort/not, return/not. Even that isn't necessary if we accept each experience is unique and therefore a matter of fact.

However, my initial point is hit and runners seem to not include themselves as such...when of course they too are hit and runners....or not very experienced .

Ciao

[Jeff Schley]

Comparing as a way of judging also may be overplayed. While it's natural for many to compare, some are content to simply look at what is in the ground and go from there. There isn't an inherent necessity to judge beyond like/dislike, enjoy/not, worth the time, money & effort/not, return/not. Even that isn't necessary if we accept each experience is unique and therefore a matter of fact.

However, my initial point is hit and runners seem to not include themselves as such...when of course they too are hit and runners....or not very experienced .

Ciao

Sean just doing a binary judgement is possible, but in today's day and age of comparisons, rankings (personal or public), competition for fees/members a judgment is probably made consciously or not. It happens perhaps without you knowing it..... I ask you, "Sean what is the best course to play within 30 minutes of your home, regardless of price/access?." We give an opinion because someone asks. We may very well offer a few, but in the end the person has to select one to play.

Same with planning golf trips, we have X number of days and most times, the cost in both time/money is an investment where we want a maximum return.  I'm not going to go to St. Andrews and skip TOC if I can help it.

I look at my views on golf course as a continuum, where my opinion is influenced the more I learn and see/experience.