[David_Tepper]

Is there a day of reckoning coming?

https://www.ukgolfguy.com/golf-blog/uk-golf-green-fee-reset

[Wayne_Kozun]

Yes, in the short term I would think they have to reduce prices.  But once international travel starts up (whenever that is) there could be pent up demand that could cause prices to go back to this level or higher.


We have had a globalization of the golf market over the last twenty years so that has led to somewhat of a global convergence of visitors' greens fees.  If the market can withstand > $250 for mediocre courses in Florida and Arizona then why not similar prices for very good or great courses in the UK.  This "gouge the yank" and keep prices low for locals has worked as long as demand is greater than supply.  Now that demand is cut off we will see how, or if, visitors prices adjust in the short term.

[Thomas Dai]

This "gouge the yank" and keep prices low for locals has worked as long as demand is greater than supply.

Depends on how you define 'local'.
If your from England and want to play visitor golf in Scot, Wales, RoI/RI it's almost always full-fee. Same if your from Scot, Wales or RoI/RI and want to play visitor golf in England or E/S/W and want to play visitor golf in RoI/NI or from RoI/NI and want to play in E/S/W.
It's fair to say though that if your from within E/S/W/RoI-NI and want to play visitor golf within your own golf union you might, might, not always though, but might, get a reduced fee at certain times at certain, but not all, clubs.
atb
 

[David Jones]

Thanks for sharing the piece David. I had good fun researching it. There's a website called waybackmachine which allows you to go back to website pages from years ago which I used to get the green fees. You can end up in many rabbit holes!


I completely agree with Thomas' point - green fees for UK residents is almost always the same as overseas visitors if you are travelling between nations - i.e. as a Scotsman going to England I would be treated the same as an American. Even within the countries there aren't a huge number of discounts.


Kingsbarns has a reduced rate in theory for Scottish residents but you can only book with 2 weeks notice and there is rarely availability. Castle Stuart and Trump International do both have discounts available all year round and bookable in advance. I was pleasantly surprised by the approach taken by Dumbarnie with the Scottish residents' rate a relatively reasonable £115. However if you're coming from the north of England you will pay full whack.


What I was trying to get across in the article was that the cost has gone up so much in recent years that most UK players simply were no longer playing these courses and maybe the period we're in now with international visitors falling will lead to a rethink on how to attract domestic visitors. Maybe.


One of the most interesting things I came across in my research maybe though was that Muirfield are opening up to Monday play for visitors as well for next year. That lovely extension and pro shop needs to be paid for somehow I suppose!

[Sean_A]

Do you think Muirfield will keep Monday visitor day once they have serviced the pre paid green fees postponed by the lock down?

We should keep in mind that clubs exist to service their members. Visitors as a revenue source is a way to do this if done well with long term plans in mind.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

This "gouge the yank" and keep prices low for locals has worked as long as demand is greater than supply. 

A post that demonstrates, as others have said, a failure to understand how UK clubs charge.  I'm not aware of any that differentiate between visitors and overseas visitors.  Some of the most expensive have very local discounts but the vast majority, if you're not a member it doesn't matter if you live just down the road or in Kentucky.

[Niall C]

David J

As a matter of interest when you did your research, did you look to see what happened to the green fees from say 2008 to 2011 following the credit crunch ? I suspect most greenfees stayed the same as pre crunch but would be interesting to know.

At the end of the day, these are all high-end with plenty fat on the bone so no danger of them going bust. They might however look to cut their costs rather than dipping into reserves and if that means toning down on the US standards of service and course presentation then all to the good. Where these guys go the smaller clubs tend to follow in a kind of keeping up with the Joneses type of way (no offence  ) which I don't think very sustainable IMO.

Wayne/Mark,

While it's true, as far as I am aware, that members clubs don't differentiate in terms of greenfee depending on where the visitor is from, the high end play and pay do. I believe Kingsbarns was the first (in Scotland) followed by Castle Stuart and now Dumbarnie. I think some of the muni's might ie. Carnoustie ? KB, CS etc don't have members so need to fill the timesheet and they won't do that with purely overseas visitors so from a marketing POV that makes sense although I always felt there was an element of fleecing the tourist (not all of them come from the US) which I thought disappointing.

On the other hand, I do like the idea of members clubs offering a discounted greenfee to members of other clubs in the country. You might argue that has the same effect but I think it's more rewarding folk who support Scottish/UK golf in a "we're all in it together" kind of way. Of course I'm not sure you'd necessarily get the Honourable Company signing up for that but maybe once Mark...........

Niall

[Sean_A]

I am noticing the deals for the English Co Card are sometimes not what they once were and with more restrictions. Maybe we are seeing the start of a trend of clubs setting up reciprocals as a way to better control valued added for their membership. In my experience, Scotland has never really got on board with the club membership system offering discounts.  Its very hit and miss, which always surprised me.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean

I think the reason for that is up until relatively recently greenfees were very cheap and in most instances probably weren't a significant portion of the income so why bother. What I have noticed is more reciprocals ie Braid courses, or MackKenzie courses and now I understand there is one for Willie Fernie courses.

Niall

[Simon Holt]

I really enjoyed reading that blog.  I'm not sure I agree with the downturn next year given tee sheets at the top courses are jammed full of rescheduled 2020 trips, then new bookings paying increased tee time prices rather than decreased, but it was a good read.


With the Open at St Andrews in 2022 (so fewer tee times available) it might be 2023 before we get a true sense of what the new golf tourism landscape looks like in Scotland.


Golf and it's spin off gives more to the Scottish economy than the fishing industry from what our Scottish Exec advisors tell us.  I made a point about credit being fair on a thread around 2 months ago now.  That came from a place of knowing how many tourists were running for the hills, even in March for trips in September this year.  Clubs with generous visitor terms and conditions have lost out on a whole season.  While others loosened terms for this year to allow tee times to be flipped into 2021 or beyond, but only for bookings up to the end of July at some courses, so far.


What's for sure is any high volume course that didn't have defensive T&Cs in place, now do and then some for 2021 and beyond.  Aside of small handful of Scottish venues on that list, the coffers aren't as plentiful at the big names as you might think.

[John Mayhugh]

I've played a bit of golf in the UK and never felt like I was being gouged.

The rates charged to visitors seem to be down to economics. Clubs are open to outside play (which is great) and obviously like to have the revenue. Higher fees means fewer visitors to produce a certain amount of revenue, which is bound to be popular with the membership.

As long as I can spend a day at Muirfield for about the same thing a day at Bandon costs, you won't catch me complaining.

[Sean_A]

I really enjoyed reading that blog.  I'm not sure I agree with the downturn next year given tee sheets at the top courses are jammed full of rescheduled 2020 trips, then new bookings paying increased tee time prices rather than decreased, but it was a good read.

With the Open at St Andrews in 2022 (so fewer tee times available) it might be 2023 before we get a true sense of what the new golf tourism landscape looks like in Scotland.

Golf and it's spin off gives more to the Scottish economy than the fishing industry from what our Scottish Exec advisors tell us.  I made a point about credit being fair on a thread around 2 months ago now.  That came from a place of knowing how many tourists were running for the hills, even in March for trips in September this year.  Clubs with generous visitor terms and conditions have lost out on a whole season.  While others loosened terms for this year to allow tee times to be flipped into 2021 or beyond, but only for bookings up to the end of July at some courses, so far.

What's for sure is any high volume course that didn't have defensive T&Cs in place, now do and then some for 2021 and beyond.  Aside of small handful of Scottish venues on that list, the coffers aren't as plentiful at the big names as you might think.

I am sensing credit cards for deposits will not be accepted by some clubs in the future. I spose its a way of reducing consumer protection on payments.

Ciao

[Simon Holt]

Hi Sean,


Interesting, I'd not thought of that.  I guess time will tell but none that I can think of so far for 2021.  Is this something that is already happening?




John M,


You make a good point.  We are blessed here in the UK with lots of well priced golf, so for a handful of the very top places to be either in line or cheaper than the likes of Bandon, Kiawah, Pinehurst, Streamsong...I don't think it's outrageous and we are lucky they are open to outside play.


If you call to try and get a time at Portrush, RCD, Muirfield et all for 2021 you'll be very lucky at this stage.  Lots of flipped trips but a decent amount of new business too, albeit far from normal levels of the latter.

[Tony_Muldoon]

In the opening post David asks if there is a day of reckoning coming?


I don't think so, people are prepared to pay a premium for the right experiences, not only in Golf. Only if airline travel and tourism ("the world's biggest industry"?) collapse for more than a season or two.  If that happens golf will seem like the least of our worries.


As I've said before it does mean the end of playing multiple rounds of the same course as visitors for most of us. One side effect of the internet has been to show that there are more 'great golf experiences' than was previously generally known.  Without that the very top course would be using price as a rationing tool even more than today. Gone are the days when a family would holiday for a week at say Dornoch and the Dad would buy a daily ticket and take his teenagers out once.  For most Dornoch is now a once and done. I'm pretty sure the green fee was circa £70 when I played 3 rounds in 2006, I had planned to return to one of my favourites this summer when the fee is £195.  I have more disposable income now, yet playing it only once and seeing some of the other  courses in the area seems more attractive.   I believe there's a positive knock on effect for those other courses when the '''name draw" charges such a premium.

Internet forums are full of old guys whinging about how little you used to pay to see....

[David Jones]

Niall -


Looking at what happened over the last recession it would be fair to say that green fees still generally increased. Here's a couple -


Kingsbarns -


2006 - £150
2008 - £160
2010 - £165
2012 - £185


Muirfield -


2006 - £135
2008 - £160
2010 - £180
2012 - £195


I think that the difference may be that last time there was just a little dip in visitor volumes for a short period. Of course no-one knows what's going to happen this time but the numbers of incoming visitors will be radically different.


Simon -


I guess a big question will be whether the travel that has been pushed back to next year will actually happen. At the moment it's impossible to tell but that must be a big factor in what happens next.....

[jeffwarne]

In the opening post David asks if there is a day of reckoning coming?

   I believe there's a positive knock on effect for those other courses when the '''name draw" charges such a premium.

....

People will play the big dog once and spread the wealth around, thus spending a bit more in the area, raising more for the big dog(or reserving more member time-nlikely) and having a better more varied experience n the area. win-win-win


Now the bigger question is when will Americans actually be allowed to enter other countries.

[Jeff Schley]

I really enjoyed reading that blog.  I'm not sure I agree with the downturn next year given tee sheets at the top courses are jammed full of rescheduled 2020 trips, then new bookings paying increased tee time prices rather than decreased, but it was a good read.

With the Open at St Andrews in 2022 (so fewer tee times available) it might be 2023 before we get a true sense of what the new golf tourism landscape looks like in Scotland.

Golf and it's spin off gives more to the Scottish economy than the fishing industry from what our Scottish Exec advisors tell us.  I made a point about credit being fair on a thread around 2 months ago now.  That came from a place of knowing how many tourists were running for the hills, even in March for trips in September this year.  Clubs with generous visitor terms and conditions have lost out on a whole season.  While others loosened terms for this year to allow tee times to be flipped into 2021 or beyond, but only for bookings up to the end of July at some courses, so far.

What's for sure is any high volume course that didn't have defensive T&Cs in place, now do and then some for 2021 and beyond.  Aside of small handful of Scottish venues on that list, the coffers aren't as plentiful at the big names as you might think.

I am sensing credit cards for deposits will not be accepted by some clubs in the future. I spose its a way of reducing consumer protection on payments.

Ciao

Then you have what.... a bank transfer as your option?  Seems like a real PITA for all parties.  If the T&C's get tightened up the CC wouldn't end up refunding a dispute that the T&C's cover.

[Sean_A]

Hi Sean,

Interesting, I'd not thought of that.  I guess time will tell but none that I can think of so far for 2021.  Is this something that is already happening?

John M,

You make a good point.  We are blessed here in the UK with lots of well priced golf, so for a handful of the very top places to be either in line or cheaper than the likes of Bandon, Kiawah, Pinehurst, Streamsong...I don't think it's outrageous and we are lucky they are open to outside play.

If you call to try and get a time at Portrush, RCD, Muirfield et all for 2021 you'll be very lucky at this stage.  Lots of flipped trips but a decent amount of new business too, albeit far from normal levels of the latter.

Simon

I had one club tell me credit cards wouldn't be accepted in the future for deposits. It makes complete sense from the club's PoV. They can charge the rate with no credit card fee and be guaranteed the money without later recourse from the credit card company which charged them money for the service!  If I was a sec of a big club raking in visitor fee I would do the same thing.

Spangles

I recall playing Troon around 91 or 92 and thinking 80 quid was a very stiff fee. I think it was the highest I knew of in GB&I at the time. I seem to recall places like Dornoch and Ballybunion were about 40 quid at the time....just about 2.5x visitor fee for a local course. Now it's more like 5x the local club fee.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

At the average of £240 p/round mentioned in the article one 4-ball per day for six months p/a is circa £180,000.
A pretty attractive amount and that’s only for one 4-ball p/d. As has been discussed herein many times however, best for Clubs not to rely excessively on visitor income coz blips occur and tastes change and then Clubs can run into difficulties. It’s the members and the regulars who are the cake, whereas the visitors are the cherry, the icing and the sugar.
Decent dosh for those who can acquire it though especially when combined with the margin on the food and beverages the same 4-ball are likely to consume both before and after the round plus the margin on any items they might buy or pay for in or in conjunction with the Proshop
And then there’s the local lodging and meals and bevvies and gifts etc and associated local and national spin offs.
Atb

[Bernie Bell]

Possibly a dumb question but . . . what % of members at places like RCD, Muirfield, Prestwick reside in other countries?  How important are travel restrictions likely to be at like places not just for visitors but for members?  Material or immaterial?

[jeffwarne]

Hi Sean,

Interesting, I'd not thought of that.  I guess time will tell but none that I can think of so far for 2021.  Is this something that is already happening?

John M,

You make a good point.  We are blessed here in the UK with lots of well priced golf, so for a handful of the very top places to be either in line or cheaper than the likes of Bandon, Kiawah, Pinehurst, Streamsong...I don't think it's outrageous and we are lucky they are open to outside play.

If you call to try and get a time at Portrush, RCD, Muirfield et all for 2021 you'll be very lucky at this stage.  Lots of flipped trips but a decent amount of new business too, albeit far from normal levels of the latter.

Simon

I had one club tell me credit cards wouldn't be accepted in the future for deposits. It makes complete sense from the club's PoV. They can charge the rate with no credit card fee and be guaranteed the money without later recourse from the credit card company which charged them money for the service!  If I was a sec of a big club raking in visitor fee I would do the same thing.

Spangles

I recall playing Troon around 91 or 92 and thinking 80 quid was a very stiff fee. I think it was the highest I knew of in GB&I at the time. I seem to recall places like Dornoch and Ballybunion were about 40 quid at the time....just about 2.5x visitor fee for a local course. Now it's more like 5x the local club fee.

Ciao

I remember playing Troon in 2004 where the only option was playing the Championship and the Portland course with lunch for 200  pounds. At the time the exchange rate was 2:1 so $400 in 2004. I know many who have opted to skip the Portland course, so $400 would've been a lot for one course at that that time.
I ended up enjoying the Portland course quite a bit.

[Pete_Pittock]

You need to consider the exchange rate between US$ and UKP.


 The first time I went to England was in 1964, when it was about 2.8 to 1.  My first golf trip was in 1975, then it was 2.3/1.  In June 2000 it was 1.5/1.  After the 1975 trip I remember that I added all expenses together (food, hotels, car, airfare) it came out to $5/hole, but I did 11 rounds in 8 days, 3 of them on TOC.

[David_Tepper]

No doubt the weak British Pound vs. the U.S.$ since 2016 has softened the blow of rising Visitor green fees for Americans playing golf in the U.K. Here is a graph & table showing the exchange rate over the past 30-40 years:

https://www.macrotrends.net/2549/pound-dollar-exchange-rate-historical-chart

The exchange rate for 2004 thru 2008 averaged $1.86 per Pound. From 2016 thru 2019, it averaged $1.31 per Pound.

A 100 Pound green in 2006 was roughly $186. Today a 200 Pound green is $246, not that big an increase (32%) over a 14-15 year period. 
 

[Michael Wolf]

I'd be curious to see similar data on the rise in visitor charges (and rounds played) at places like Elie, Brora and Rye


I have zero evidence to support my claim, but it's felt to me like the (formerly) hidden gems are the clubs that have benefited most from increased travel combined with easier to find online information. I don't remember ever planning in advance to play Elie or Crail. It was just a place to go play on days when you were unsuccessful for the Old's ballot.


And I agree re:Fx rates. This middle aged American sill has painful memories of 2:1 exchanges.


Michael

[Lou_Duran]

One of my golf partners is hosting the wedding of his daughter in Tulsa in August.  He is from England and fears that his large family there won't be able to attend due to the travel restrictions in place in both countries.


Question: what does the 14-day quarantine entail?  If I land in LHR in route to, say, Inverness, am I locked up in a hotel or government facility in London or Inverness for 14 days before being allowed to reach my destination?


As to green fees and prices relative to the weakness of the pound, my Dornoch B & B owner jacked up my nightly rate by £5 last September, the off season, from my prior visit in August.  I was surprised since I assumed that a month later during a slower period, the rate would likely be the same.  Her response to my inquiry was simple and prompt: "things just cost more now".


My feeling on pricing is that though most people like free stuff, when it comes to their product or service, it is a matter of what the market will bear.  I am not expecting bargains when we lose our fear of the virus and things begin to approach the new normal.

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