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Mark_Fine

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Oakland Hills to move greens?
« on: November 01, 2003, 05:16:19 PM »
Have it from a very reliable source that Oakland Hills is looking into moving greens (evidently they can't find more distance for some holes by moving back tees).  Anyone know anything more about this?  Rees is overseeing the work.
Mark

Mitch Hantman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2003, 11:17:54 PM »
Mark,
I was playing there about 6 weeks ago, and they did say that they are probably going to move a couple of greens back as you say.  

Jim_Michaels

Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2003, 10:02:36 AM »
Calling USGA/R&A/Tour! Stop the madness. Stop the madness.

T_MacWood

Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2003, 10:07:50 AM »
I can't imagine Rees (or his father for that matter) ever altering a classic old course. I'm sure its not true.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2003, 10:17:31 AM »
Tom,

Did you forget the smiley face after your statement about Rees?

bg_in_rtp

Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2003, 11:28:23 AM »
are they talking about moving greens before or after the Ryder Cup?

seeing as it's now winter in MI, and will be a sloppy mess until mid-April, how much time does it take to build and grow in a green(s)?  considering the unpredictability of weather the last few years, this sounds like a poor risk-reward decision for 2004.  

I'd also argue that the college kids, that bombed it around for the US-Am, hit it longer than the pros.  And weather in summer (US-Am in July) was warmer than it will be for Ryder Cup (Sept), so the ball won't fly as far.  

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2003, 12:20:30 PM »
Having grown up with golf, directly across the Detroit River from Oakland Hills, I'm quite familiar with the course and its world famous putting greens. In turn, I'm very anxious about the details of this proposed work, if indeed it's true.

Moving greens at Oakland Hills, where most of the putting surfaces are presently situated in the 'right spots' suggested by the native terrain (Ross' routing is brilliant), would amount to nothing more than a disaster.

With Inverness just down the road (I-75), you'd think the powers-that-be at Oakland Hills are well aware of the risk they'd be taking moving greens. Stupider things have happend though.
jeffmingay.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2003, 12:54:19 PM »
Mark Fine,

Is it possible that the article on the USGA website is related to the greens at Oakland Hills ?

With the high tech available today, I would think it possible to recreate greens to within decimals of their current surfaces.

The question is, will they use the root zone soil and existing grass on the new greens, will they literally move the old greens, like a house, to a new location ?  Or, will they construct new greens.

If it's the latter, how will they ever play and putt the same as the older greens ?

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2003, 07:41:10 PM »
It will not be the first time greens have been moved at Oakland Hills.
In the late 60's Wadsworth Construction had a contract to move (relocate) most of the fairway bunkers from 225 yards from the tees to new locations 265 to 270 yards from the tees.
At the same time, a few greens, (I seem to recall # 5 and 6)were rebuilt and moved slightly. Not to add length but for a larger, better performing green agrinomically.
This work was prepatory for the 1970? PGA
RT Jones was the architect, of course.
I was doing fine grading on the putting surfaces as well as fine tuning the bunker shapes.
I did this work following the complete re-construction of Dearborn Country Club or the complete destruction of an original Donald Ross layout for Robbie Robinson.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2003, 09:05:14 PM »
I don't have any details on the project other than I know it is being considered.  Was hoping someone out there had more information and could share it with us.  

Pat,
I suspect they would at least keep the sod.  Whether they use the soil will probably depend on the other greens and what they've done to them in the past.  It is not much fun having to maintain greens with all different soils not to mention some push ups and some USGA spec.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2003, 09:09:40 AM »
Dick,

Interesting that you worked on those 1970-era changes at Oakland Hills South. And, I've long understood that several of the greens were enlarged and altered. But none were actually moved downrange, were they?

Thinking about the layout today... which greens could go back?

No. 1 -- green lies at bottom of a slope, moving it any farther back would put it in front of 2 tee
No. 2 -- a wonderfully sited green, atop a rise. Moving it back would put it over the same rise, leaving a blind shot. (Can't recall if there's actually room behind the existing green?)
No. 3 -- an RTJ green that could be moved back, slightly, I think
No. 4 -- 5 tee is immediately behind this green, leaving no room to move it back
No. 5 -- another well-sited green, atop a rise, with the club's property ending immediately behind. No room
No. 6 -- yet another well-sited green atop a rise, with 7 tee immediately behind
No. 7 -- there may be room here to moved the green back, but it would require significant earthwork, and 8 tee's already been moved so far back, a 7th green moved downrange would surely be threatened by players teeing off at 8. (The walk backwards from 7 green to 8 tee, as it is presently, is somewhat awkward, IMO)
No. 8 -- yet another well-sited green, cut into a steep hillside, with 9 and 12 tees very close by. No room
No. 9 -- green sits at the foot of the clubhouse. No room

*So, on the front, I guess 3 and 7 could be moved downrange.

No. 10 -- yet another green well-sited atop a rise, with 17 green and 18 tee very close by. No room
No. 11 -- the famous 11th green, in the saddle between two hills is classic. Why move it? And, furthermore, there's no room, with a steep fall off at left, 9 tee immediately behind, and 12 tee immediately right
No. 12 -- yet another well-sited green atop a rise. Moving the green back seems illogical, if there's room at all? (12 is in the 590 yard range -- downhill off the tee, uphill to the green -- and I witnesed both Ricky Barnes and Hunter Mahan reach the green in two, with irons, during the 2002 US Amateur final match!)
No. 13 -- I don't recall if there room behind this par 3 green?
No. 14 -- perhaps my favourite green on the golf course, retreating from the line of play (!) and featuring some massive contour, with the club's property close behind. I don't think there's any room
No. 15 -- yet another green situated atop a rise. There might be room behind, but it would take a significant cut and fill to make it work, I think. And the walk back to 16 tee would become as awkward as the walk from 7 to 8
No. 16 -- they can't move this green, situated adjacent to the famous pond. It's historic. Although, does that factor?
No. 17 -- one of the world's great uphill par 3s. The green is ideally sited atop another rise, with no room to move it back, I don't think
No. 18 -- like 9, the 18th green is located at the foot of the clubhouse. There might be a bit of room to move it up the slope there (adding 10 yards?), but that would compromise space for tournament galleries, wouldn't it?

*On the back 9, maybe 13 and 15 could move. Otherwise, I can't imagine another.

Granted, I haven't studied the golf course in-depth, with potential alterations in mind. But the aforementioned thoughts are based on numerous visits to Oakland Hills South over the years, for whatever they're worth, if anything.

My humble opinion is, moving any greens at Oakland HIlls South would be a disaster.
jeffmingay.com

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2003, 09:34:01 AM »
Have it from a very reliable source that Oakland Hills is looking into moving greens (evidently they can't find more distance for some holes by moving back tees).  Anyone know anything more about this?  Rees is overseeing the work.
Mark

Mark,

I had been told this as well.  The major difference is that I was told for certain that the work was being done by Art Hills, not Rees.  Are you sure it was Rees?
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Robert Thompson

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Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2003, 10:47:33 AM »
When I played there in the summer, I was told by the pro that Mr. Hills was no longer working on the course and that it had been turned over to Rees. But my understanding was that Rees was not doing much at the course until after the Ryder Cup....


Robert
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

TEPaul

Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2003, 03:08:09 PM »
Adding tee length in the name of distance if it has no negative impact on any other hole is one thing. At least if it doesn't work well you can take it out or not use it. But moving a green in the name of distance really sucks! You sure don't have the option of not using that green and if it doesn't work out what are you going to do then--since you've already wiped out the original?

But moving a green in the name of distance alone really stinks. There're some examples of greens that have some kind of problem such as they're too small for the amount of play and the best option for that instead of moving or redesigning them is to build an alternate as PVGC did twice, Riviera did etc. At least that way you don't have to touch the original.

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Oakland Hills to move greens?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2003, 04:23:08 PM »
Jeff:
I agree with you and several others that moving the greens at Oakland Hills and for that matter moving greens on most classic golf courses is not too smart. Unless they are too small to take the incresed play, they should be left as is, and to move them to increase yardage is stupid.
I think if a classic green is too small, a computer generated drawing that increases it's size and retains all other elements could be feasible. The increased size of the putting surface would allow for the same type of contours using to-days new bent cultivars and cutting heights (stimp speed),
Somewhere all this yardage madness has to stop.
Hamilton Golf Club at just over 7000 yards stood up well to the players by narrowing fairways and introducing 4" rough.
As you know, 8 under won the prize.

Dick