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Michael Wolf

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Gourmet choices in the red Confidential Guide
« on: April 22, 2020, 05:08:54 PM »
The following were the 31(32) gourmet choices in the original confidential guide:


The Addington
Ballybunion
Casa De Campo
Cruden Bay
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Royal Dornuch
High Pointe
Lahinch
Long Cove
Machrihanish
Royal Melbourne
Merion
Muirfield
NGLA
Royal County Down
North Berwick
Pennard
Pine Valley
Royal Portrush
Prairie Dunes
Riviera
Rye
St Andrews Old Course
St Enodoc
SFGC
Royal St George's
Swinley Forest
Westward Ho!
Whitinsville/Mildenhall
Woodhall Spa


Could someone tell me if these same 32 were used in the red Confidential Guide, or which were changed? I know quite a few changes were made by the time the yellow CD was published. I'm trying to determine which courses have made every edition of the CD. (and selfishly which ones I haven't seen yet)


Thank you,
Michael

Buck Wolter

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Re: Gourmet choices in the red Confidential Guide
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2020, 05:28:13 PM »

Italics are the additions

  • The Addington
  • Ballybunion
  • Casa De Campo
  • Commonwealth
  • The Creek
  • Cruden Bay
    Crystal Downs
  • Cypress Point
  • Desert Highlands
  • Royal Dornuch
  • Durban
  • Forest Highlands
  • Garden City
  • High Pointe
  • Kawana
  • Lancaster
  • Lahinch
    Long Cove
    Machrihanish

    Royal Melbourne
    Merion
    Muirfield
  • NGLA
  • North Berwick
  • Royal County Down
    North Berwick
    Pennard
  • Pine Valley
  • Pinehurst
  • Royal Portrush
    Prairie Dunes
    Riviera
    Rye
    St Andrews Old Course
  • St Enodoc
  • St. George's Canada
  • St. George's Hill
  • SFGC
  • Sand Hills
  • Royal St George's
  • Shadow Creek
  • Swinley Forest
    Westward Ho!
    Whitinsville/Mildenhall
    Woodhall Spa

Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Michael Wolf

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Re: Gourmet choices in the red Confidential Guide
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2020, 05:33:20 PM »
Thank you Buck.


Michael

Michael Wolf

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Re: Gourmet choices in the red Confidential Guide
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2020, 05:37:49 PM »
So it looks like the only change from the red CD to the yellow CD gourmet's was the swapping out of High Pointe for Stonewall.


Michael

Tom_Doak

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Re: Gourmet choices in the red Confidential Guide
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2020, 06:08:07 PM »
It would be easier to go to the source for such questions.  ;)


Most of the differences in The Gourmet's Choice between the ORIGINAL [40 copies] book and the maroon [1000 copies] book was the result of a political decision:  I changed the rules and required myself to pick courses from 31 different architects.




The yellow version was the same as the maroon one, except for including whatever courses I'd seen in 1994 and 1995.


If you have a yellow copy with Stonewall in The Gourmet's Choice, that is the second printing of the book.  High Pointe was still there in the first printing.  However, they were starting to mess around with the course right then, and lose the plot on the conditioning, and when Brian Lewis asked me if I wanted to make any changes before the reprint, I thought, why I am rewarding the client who's messing up, instead of the client who's doing everything they can to make the course better?  So, Stonewall was a last-minute replacement.


They actually were still selling the book in the pro shop at High Pointe for a while after that, because they hadn't noticed the change.  When they did, I was briefly banned from the premises.  Fun times!  [Although, battling with one's own clients is a Pyrrhic victory at best.]

Michael Wolf

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Re: Gourmet choices in the red Confidential Guide
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2020, 07:21:52 PM »
Tom,

I didn't want to DM you directly and make it seem as if I was asking you to defend your changes. It's been a rainy day down here in Birmingham, so I was passing the time by updating my spreadsheet I use to track golf courses. And I've fallen down a bit of a CD rabbit hole. But since you asked!!...I have no other specific questions, just a few observations from the data if you'd care to comment:

By my count there were 45 different courses used when you were limiting yourself to 31 courses, and then 31 architects.Obviously the most recent 5 volume edition has expanded the #'s. And also introduced the choices of your coauthors. Again by my quick count, V1 had 6 new entries, including Prestwick which I was surprised hadn't made any of the earlier lists. V2 somewhat surprisingly only had 5 new choices. But then V3 and V5 had 14 and 16 newcomers, reflecting both the number of new courses built and the increased number of courses seen by the author(s). Newcomers in V3 which surprised me were Shinnecock and Oakmont. And in V5 I was a little surprised you stayed with Kawana for Alison.A total of 86 courses have appeared on at least one Gourmet list. Interesting (to me) that no continental European course was ever chosen. CC of Durban has been the lone African nominee. So the all time list of Gourmet's will exceed 100 once V4 is published. Some stalwarts that had made every list UNTIL the most recent version were St Enodoc, the Addington, Woodhall Spa, Riviera, Prairie Dunes, Pine Valley, Westward Ho! and NGLA. That left six courses which I believe are in every version of the CD gourmet list: Ballybunion, Casa de Campo, Crystal Downs, Merion, North Berwick and St Andrews Old Course. Interestingly, only 3 of those 6 most recently averaged higher than 9.00 on the Doak scale.

Apologies if I've screwed up any of that data.I've played 57 of the 86, and have 5 others on the short term list as soon as the coronavirus risk recedes. I'll hazard a guess that I've only played 5 or 6 of the unseen V4 list. As you've previously written, the V5 gourmets alone would require a seriously determined effort. Bordering on demented. So I think it's natural to ask - how many "gourmets" have others seen? Is anyone making a specific goal of playing all of the gourmet choice courses?

Thanks,Michael



« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 07:49:16 PM by Michael Wolf »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Gourmet choices in the red Confidential Guide
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2020, 08:33:51 PM »

Apologies if I've screwed up any of that data.I've played 57 of the 86, and have 5 others on the short term list as soon as the coronavirus risk recedes. I'll hazard a guess that I've only played 5 or 6 of the unseen V4 list. As you've previously written, the V5 gourmets alone would require a seriously determined effort. Bordering on demented. So I think it's natural to ask - how many "gourmets" have others seen? Is anyone making a specific goal of playing all of the gourmet choice courses?



I doubt anyone will ever do that.  Not even I have played every course in the Gourmet's Choice:  I haven't played Oakmont [though I've been there 4 times], which is one reason I never had it in previously, and I also didn't play Audubon Park in New Orleans or Shanqin Bay in China.  And I haven't even seen Peninsula which is in the last book, or Fowler's Mill from volume 3 -- I took Darius Oliver's and Ran's word on those.


Shinnecock was not in the list originally because (a) I prefer its next door neighbor and (b) I wanted to include one of the Philly courses for William Flynn, instead of another on Long Island.  So, Lancaster won the draw.


When in doubt, I have let public access break the tie for what course to include, which is why Kawana is in over Hirono, to cite one tie-breaker.  I'm on the record here as not being a fan of putting courses on a pedestal which most golfers would never be allowed to play.  To me, it's like the debate about the tree falling in the forest, except for the writer beating his chest to tell people he heard it fall.  ::)

C. Sturges

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Re: Gourmet choices in the red Confidential Guide
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2020, 09:21:30 PM »
Mr. Doak,


It would be doable to play Oakmont and Fowler’s Mill on the same day in the middle of summer.  Both courses are enjoyable.   If you need someone to join you, I would make myself available.  Haha
chris

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Gourmet choices in the red Confidential Guide
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2020, 12:59:24 PM »
As the conversation seems to have died down I hope y'all don't mind me asking a dumb question…

The copy I look to most frequently has the Gourmet's Choice list on page 9 and has 31 courses, which includes High Pointe (and not Stonewall). It was published in 1996 by Sleeping Bear Press.

This version is just a regular old widely available edition, yeah? With several thousand copies printed?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Dave Maberry

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Re: Gourmet choices in the red Confidential Guide
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2020, 02:43:02 PM »
As the conversation seems to have died down I hope y'all don't mind me asking a dumb question…

The copy I look to most frequently has the Gourmet's Choice list on page 9 and has 31 courses, which includes High Pointe (and not Stonewall). It was published in 1996 by Sleeping Bear Press.

This version is just a regular old widely available edition, yeah? With several thousand copies printed?


Erik,


It sounds like you have version 4 of the Confidential Guide which is Sleeping Bear Press first printing (10,000) from 1996


See [size=78%]https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35176.msg741086/topicseen.html#msg741086[/size]
for a history of various editions

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Gourmet choices in the red Confidential Guide
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2020, 03:23:10 PM »
It sounds like you have version 4 of the Confidential Guide which is Sleeping Bear Press first printing (10,000) from 1996

See https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35176.msg741086/topicseen.html#msg741086
for a history of various editions
Thank you.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.