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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« on: May 08, 2020, 02:11:03 PM »
A friend of mine, Martin Simpson, was in the vicinity of the Course this morning and took a few quick snaps which he has very graciously agreed for me to share. Thanks, Martin! Course definitely appears to be growing in very nicely.














Looking forward to seeing/playing it when we are allowed.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2020, 02:17:42 PM »
The mix of the two styles of bunkers is still weird to me wherever I see it.


I know, it's just esthetics.  But some of those bunkers are really only there for esthetics.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2020, 02:36:05 PM »
The mix of styles was one of the first things I noticed but I like that. It is happening more and more at UK links courses as they expose areas and just let them go to sand.


Clive Clark had a lot of flair as a golf course architect, he did a lot in the UK back in the 90s, but not heard anything much about him for nearly 25 years.

A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Michael Graham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2020, 02:51:12 PM »
Marty,


I’m guessing as Fifer you won’t have to pay the £230+ rack rate. That’s not a dig at the perceived parsimony of residents of the Kingdom by the way. For that price it’s a little rich for my blood based on the photos.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2020, 03:53:21 PM »
Marty,


I’m guessing as Fifer you won’t have to pay the £230+ rack rate. That’s not a dig at the perceived parsimony of residents of the Kingdom by the way. For that price it’s a little rich for my blood based on the photos.


Michael,
There's a reduced Scottish Golfer rate as well as the Fifer rate!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2020, 06:26:21 PM »



Marty,


So, that just leaves us internationals to pay the full freight.  :)  I think I'll take a pass at that rate.  So many old gems at more reasonable prices.


Did your friend Martin really goose the colour intensity before he gave the photos to you.  I've never seen colours like that in real life, let alone near the Auld Grey Toon.   :o




Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2020, 07:34:14 PM »
Is it farmland (a la Castle) or links land?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2020, 09:22:49 PM »
The mix of styles was one of the first things I noticed but I like that. It is happening more and more at UK links courses as they expose areas and just let them go to sand.


Clive Clark had a lot of flair as a golf course architect, he did a lot in the UK back in the 90s, but not heard anything much about him for nearly 25 years.

The two styles here don't seem to blend as well as at other places. But I have to say it makes sense to me to use pots around greens. The blowouts mean a lot more rough and generally that isn't good to mix much with f&f conditions around greens.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2020, 03:20:33 AM »
To give credit where it’s due, Clive Clark may be the face but this course is really Paul Kimber and Niall Glen.


My personal opinion is when bunker styles are being mixed, it looks best to try and meld the styles within each bunker: in other words, try and put a sod wall face in some of the natural bunkers, get some natural rough backing some sod wall pots, and don’t make the size differences so stark i.e. don’t have every natural bunker much larger than every pot.

That’s not a comment on Dumbarnie, which I haven’t seen. More on a lot of other work that’s being done.



Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2020, 03:59:44 AM »
Other photos I’ve seen seem to suggest the liberal use of ‘chocolate drop’ dunes on the course.
Atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2020, 10:30:27 AM »
The mix of the two styles of bunkers is still weird to me wherever I see it.


I know, it's just esthetics.  But some of those bunkers are really only there for esthetics.


The one furthest from the green(over) is there for a very strategic/penal reason.
It's to make you think twice about using a wedge to access that back shelf from the fairway short and left of the green that no doubt will be mowed and moistened to .23 of an inch or less, leaving the shot to be attempted by the most skilled .001% or the most unskilled (naive)


At the rate they're going, a full tour can be arranged in the area and play a full compliment of 21st Century designed and conditioned courses, without ever having to set foot in or on any of those "old" un"manicured" courses or accomodations.
Thus leaving the rest of the classic courses and towns accessible, affordable and enjoyable.
Big World.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2020, 06:50:01 PM »
The mix of the two styles of bunkers is still weird to me wherever I see it.


I know, it's just esthetics.  But some of those bunkers are really only there for esthetics.


I was just thinking the same thing, especially after looking through the Turnberry thread. Seems so convoluted.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2020, 04:40:36 AM »
Re bunkers/waste areas - everything looks very new and it will be interesting to see how it looks in 10 years time. Does Castle Stuart still have their waster areas and do they still maintain them or do they leave them to their own devices ? Personally I'd like to see the latter happen and see how things develop.

Mounding/dunes - again, probably needs quite a few years to bed in. Presently they look a bit un-natural to my eye.

Path - if it wasn't for the dog-leg layout the Romans would have been proud to call that their own !

Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2020, 05:47:22 AM »
Is it farmland (a la Castle) or links land?


Farmland, but sandy farmland. It goes right up to but not into the Dumbarnie Links SSSI. They chose not to try to use the natural linksland to make planning permission easier to get.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2020, 07:31:30 AM »
Adam,

As you know I'm not one to pick fights or be at all pedantic but.........

Your answer suggests that the two ie. farmland and links are mutually exclusive, but if that were the case then most of Turnberry, North Berwick West, Prestwick etc wouldn't be links and that is clearly not the case. The term "farmland" isn't a categorisation of the type of land but rather it's use. Just saying  ;D.

Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2020, 07:43:42 AM »
Adam,

As you know I'm not one to pick fights or be at all pedantic but.........

Your answer suggests that the two ie. farmland and links are mutually exclusive, but if that were the case then most of Turnberry, North Berwick West, Prestwick etc wouldn't be links and that is clearly not the case. The term "farmland" isn't a categorisation of the type of land but rather it's use. Just saying  ;D .

Niall


Yeah, you're right. But it wasn't natural raw links, that's my point.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2020, 08:07:41 AM »
Of course, just having a laugh.

Question; I was clearly not a fan of the Embo application or rather the idea of developing the specific land they applied to get planning permission for, however I think Dumbarnie shows the way forward in how to approach these type of developments. In your opinion and with your practised eye would they have done any better if they had used the SSSI land at Dumbarnie ?

Niall

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2020, 08:59:21 AM »
Thanks Adam!
Reason I ask is having driven by the land that would become the Castle course in 2005 it didn't remind of traditional "links land."
Whatever that is  ;D

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2020, 09:04:50 AM »
Just going through my notes on Paul Kimber's well done presentation at BIGGA Harrogate re: Dumbarnie


'Creating a modern golf course that will stand the test of time' by Paul Kimber


- 345 acres
- 2 plateaus - 1 sate 60 ft higher with a steep escarpment separating the two parcels of land


Nov 2018 - site transformed into a links golf course


There were 3 attempts to activate this project in 2013, 2016 and 2017


Planning was approved in 2018 with 45 planning conditions


Investor group - Landscapes Unlimited an American company whose aim was to get the course ready in 2020 and was not prepared to work at risk


It needed to be seeded straight after a short construction period so therefore decisions had to be made very swiftly as the project progressed


Water source was v important - which came from wells on the site


Short window for tree felling carried this out in snowy weather in early 2018


BIGGEST CHALLENGE - 2 Major gas mains pipe which ran perpendicular to each other therefore splitting site into 4 areas


Decisions to use USGA spec or not? as it was a sandy based site


Tight programme to work to


- Earthworks - 12-14 weeks
- Shaping - 16 weeks
- Irrigation and drainage works - 18 weeks
- Final prep - 10 weeks
- Seeding - 12 weeks


Total Construction period 5 and half months in a tight window.


I have to say this is rather impressive and the course has come to fruition really well considering it commenced works in early 2018. Paul said it was the hardest job that he has worked on. I get the feeling that it is more a Paul Kimber course based on the works at Castle Stuart and Clive Clark being the main design consultant


Cheers
Ben

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2020, 09:18:15 AM »
Of course, just having a laugh.

Question; I was clearly not a fan of the Embo application or rather the idea of developing the specific land they applied to get planning permission for, however I think Dumbarnie shows the way forward in how to approach these type of developments. In your opinion and with your practised eye would they have done any better if they had used the SSSI land at Dumbarnie ?

Niall


I think you have to distinguish between found and built courses. Dumbarnie, like Kingsbarns and the Castle (the first two were at least sandy) is emphatically a built course. Coul would have been a found one. Is one better than the other? A subjective judgement. But I'm sure you can acknowledge that there is a difference.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 09:44:43 AM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2020, 05:31:31 AM »
Adam,

I think I know what you mean by found but there was still an awful lot of material going to be moved at Embo so it wasn’t like back in the days when courses were simply “laid out” and the gca used his routing to take into account existing features, utilising them where they could and working round others that proved an issue.

However when you have the choice to bulldoze your way out of a problem, and you intend to use that as a design solution then I’m not sure you can call the course totally found. And while I understand that some gca’s might find using parts of an existing landscape more inspiring than creating a landscape from scratch such as at Kingsbarns etc, these guys are meant to be very good at what they do. I also expect that other gca’s might prefer the blank canvas.

What I’m basically getting at is the notion that you somehow need pristine links land (if there is such a thing) to create a great links course, is basically wrong.

Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2020, 05:44:53 AM »
I think you're quibbling Niall. This isn't like you  :)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2020, 06:40:22 AM »
Actually, I think you'll find I'm nitpicking.

Niall

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2020, 07:06:59 AM »
Is it just me, or does anyone else find themselves utterly unmoved to play Dumbarnie having looked at them?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dumbarnie - a wee taster
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2020, 07:18:06 AM »
Mark,

I kind of understand what you are saying. The course hasn't been hyped to build the anticipation levels so you are left looking at photos to peak the interest. Bunkered magazine did a spread on it not long ago and I have to say it did look good. That said, after my experience of playing Balmedie when it was quite new I think I'll wait a couple of years for Dumbarnie to bed in before playing it. That will also give me the opportunity of saving up for the greenfee !

Niall

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