[Bryan Izatt]

Hole #17



The 17th was previously a par 5 that was shortened to a par 4 by bringing the green a bit back towards the tee.  A reason for doing so was to open up the driving corridor for the new back tees high on the dune to the back right of 17 green.  The back and white tees can make for a long par 4 especially into the quartering wind from the right.  The hole plays down a low valley between large dunes. 

The white tee is just across the requisite new stone bridge from the 16 green.  The 7th hole is behind the large dune in the background.





A view down the fairway from the more forward tees.  The green is at the top of the ridge.  It used to be some 40 yards further on.  I think this will make for a more challenging par 4 than it did as a par 5 for the pros.







Two photos from the fairway with the pin way over on the left side of the green which is perched on top of the ridge.







A look at the fairly benign green from the front left with a collecting pot.  And finally a look back towards the tee.

[Bryan Izatt]

Hole #18



As mentioned previously, the tees on the 18th have been moved back up on the dunes and thus provided extra yardage to make it a more daunting closing hole at 485 yards from the back tees.  For many of us the tee shot will provide an interesting challenge - either lay up to the left bunker and a bad angle, try to power fade a drive off the left bunkers  or carry the right bunker.  I failed at option 3, carrying the right bunker and drew a dreadful lie on the back of the trap.  The pros will probably just blow it over the right bunkers even from the back tees. taking the strategy out of the hole.

Here is the view from the path between the tees.  The tee is up to the right.  Sadly I didn't get a picture looking back to the back tee where my playing partner was silhouetted against a very black sky.  Haste to finish was now the thought.





A few minutes later we were trying to shelter in place in the 18th fairway before we finished somewhat drenched.  A short time later the sun was out and I went out walking again to get some photos of the rest of the hole.





A look at the green from the right side of the fairway.   And, then a photo from the centre of the fairway.  Note the ubiquitous owner's clock at the left edge of the photos.







A look from the front right of the green and then looking back over the green to the tee show of the undulations of the green.  The conditioning of the course was great from beginning to end.







Certainly a course that could entertain the Open although I'm not sure of the four par 5's and the 5 par 3's in that context.  The front nine and up to the 11th hole would probably be the best part for watching play, while from the 12th hole on there is a bit of a let down.  The real architectural drama is in the middle of the course.  Would the pros take it apart score-wise - probably.

Is the course better after the face lift in 2015?  Definitely.  Is it a course worth playing?  Certainly,  it's just too bad about the ownership and the price.  If you can get past that, give it a go.

[Ash Towe]

Bryan,
Thanks very much for the tour. Appreciate how much time and effort you must have put in to bring us it.

[David Jones]

Bryan,
Thanks very much for the tour. Appreciate how much time and effort you must have put in to bring us it.

Here, here. Many thanks Bryan for taking the time to do this. I have only played it once before and once after the work but I fully agree with your conclusion!

[Lou_Duran]

But for the gratuitous, hyperbolic slam of Trump in the introduction and at the conclusion, this is a good piece of work Bryan.  I guess that getting you a 40% discount off the rack rate was sufficient for you to hold your nose for some five hours.  And other than playing like crap as you were sure to note while trying, mostly unsuccessfully, to move you along so we could stay within sight of all the four balls ahead of us, getting soaked as we walked to our drives on #18 was just the cherry on the topping.  Good memories! 


Perhaps you could add the picture of the routing from the yardage book and of a scorecard.  This is such a good course tour that perhaps Ran can add it to the Courses By Country or In My Opinion sections.  BTW, is there a way to store the pictures so they don't disappear when the host site deletes them?


My expectations of Ailsa going in were based largely on the Watson/Nicklaus battle in the Open.  I had a copy of the architects' fine brochure and suspected that the changes would make the course more challenging as well as visually alluring.  But I was not expecting the level of difficulty I encountered, primarily the placement and severity of the fairway bunkers and the effect of the wind (15-20+ mph from the south), especially on the downwind shots.


I can't think of a round where I had such a hard time flighting the ball- e.g. on #9 trying to loft a 6 iron downwind 185 yards only for the shot to be knocked down the cliff, then hitting a 5 from the same spot some 40+ yards long.  And this was on a relatively mild day.


Returning to Ailsa is a must.  It is in my top 20 for sure and I hope to some day fork over the dough and spend a couple of nights and days at the resort.  Should the R & A allow politics to exclude this course as an Open venue, it is our loss.

[BHoover]

Turnberry is a course I have always wanted to play, and with the renovation work I look forward to hopefully playing there some day in the future. I wouldn’t play there under the current ownership. Maybe eventually when it is sold in receivership and a better owner takes over, I look forward to a visit.


Thank you very much for the photos.

[Greg Gilson]

Bryan, thank you very much for taking the time to complete this "tour". I have not played there in 10 years and actually LOVED the course then. Your images and words make me think its even better. Thanks again.

[Bryan Izatt]

To those who enjoyed the tour, you're welcome.  It helps that the course is photogenic, unlike many other links courses.  It brought back good memories.

Lou,

Gratuitous - hardly!    The owner provokes visceral responses in many people and is relevant to the course.  Golf does not live in a bubble divorced from the real world.  Hyperbolic - really!    I thought it was kind of understated.  Slam    - are you writing headlines for FOX or CNN where everything is blasting or ripping or slamming or a bombshell.  I thought it was a straight forward one sentence statement.


I was and am grateful for the better prices you were able to get on some of the places we've been.  A couple of other places we went on that trip that you arranged rate amongst my best golf experiences ever.  I didn't hold my nose.  My heart has hardened a lot in the last three years.  My wife even questioned why I had Trump yardage books and scorecards on my desk.  She's even more hardhearted than I am.


Re pace of play, I did notice that you were making copious notes while I was taking pictures and your 90+ shots took more time than usual for you.     According to the time stamps on the photos we finished in just over 4.5 hours which is the recommended playing time.  The pace was just fine as we never had to wait on the group ahead and the group behind never got within a hole of us.  And I have good photo memories of the place to share. 

If Ran wants the tour I'd be happy to give it to him, but I'm not going to push it.

I agree that the course can play tough for the resort style player or even you better players.  It is a "championship" course and that was one of Ebert's directions which has been achieved.  That said, the pros would probably take it apart unless rough is up, the wind is really up and the course is real firm.  The day we played was pretty benign for the west coast of Scotland.  I don't think the wind was more than 10 mph. 

Re the R&A, politics and the Open, I think perhaps you don't quite understand the perception and dislike of Trump in countries outside of the US (except apparently for the Philippines).  His approval (?) rating in the UK hover around 25% and is probably worse in Scotland.  After the TIGLS debacle I don't see many in Scotland wanting to have anything to do with him.  Why would the R&A want to become embroiled with him when they have a healthy rota of courses for the Open?  Again, golf does not reside outside of political reality (or the many alternate realities). 

I agree the Ailsa would be a good Open course, maybe after he is gone from it.

[Lou_Duran]

Bryan,


Tell me what your comments on Trump added to your otherwise fine course tour?  Ok, I guess you Lefties can't let a virtue signaling opportunity go to waste.


Tell me, do you really worry that the U.S. under a Trump administration would purse the "ruination" of your country?  Here I thought that the Russians and Chinese who have amassed quite impressive portfolios of Canadian residential and commercial real estate might cause more concerns.  Oh well, we do see the world very differently.   


Perhaps you should attempt to retrieve some of your "photo memories".  You know those copious notes I was taking, I have the base wind at 15 mph, gusting to 20+, mostly from the south.  I also remember catching up to the large mixed group in front of us finally on the 10th tee after they had taken the customary long break for tea at the lighthouse.  I don't recall being on the same hole with them again much after that.


As to separating politics from sport, I understand that it is an impossibility as we can't seem to do it from nearly all facets of life.  We are the lesser for it.  If I boycotted movies, TV programs, music and concerts, companies and their products, fellow golfers, neighbors and friends because the political views of their principals were at variance with mine, it would be my loss and I would be playing a lot of golf by myself.


Ailsa is too good of a course to be left off the Open rota.  I was not in good form when we played on 8/18/17.  Perhaps it had to do with it being my 12th round in 9 days, all walking.   And it was only because my card and pencil mentality forced me to hole out four triples and a quadruple or I would have broken 90 easily.  I do think that Aisla is more difficult than Troon where I shot an 81 the day before; probably similar in challenge and interest as Portrush, another one of my favorites.

[Niall C]

Lou,

Re Turnberry and the Open - I don't think there is any danger of the Open not going back to Turnberry but the R&A will pick the opportune time and with so many options there is no need to hurry. I don't profess to have any inside knowledge of what they are thinking but I suspect they are wary of Trump's overbearing presence impacting on the event.

I think we can agree that Trump is a polarising figure and indeed we can all probably agree that is part of his success and something that he plays on and encourages. He also has an eye for publicity and self-promotion and has in the past been very visible at golf events played on one of his courses. Put that all together and you can see why the R&A would be very wary of him overshadowing their event.

I'm making no comment on his politics or policies, just the way he does business and why the R&A might want to keep him at arms-length.

Bryan

Thanks for the tour. I haven't yet played the new Turnberry. I nearly did last year but Jerry Kluger didn't want to get his hair wet 


Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

 This is such a good course tour

I agree with Lou!   Thanks Brian.

[Greg Smith]

I suspect that if we got ANGC or Pine Valley or CPC or NGLA or any of our favorites to reveal their membership list, we would find many names on both right and left which were boycott-worthy.  I'm sure the Honorable Company of Edinburgh Golfers contains at least some members that are not so... honorable. 

That is why these clubs keep their membership lists under wraps.

So I would suggest that actively expressing ANY political opinion at all when talking about golf architecture puts one in grave danger of hypocrisy.

Think about it.  If one delved into the secret files of Trump Turnberry, one might find some very high profile (and very rich) lefties that Bryan would be happy to keep company with!   Horrors!

It's usually best to keep one's mouth shut about things not salient to the matters at hand.

[Lou_Duran]

Niall,


I find myself in the unusual situation that I have no bones to pick on your comments above.  For me, The Open is all about tradition and golf in its natural elements.  No doubt that the focus or attention shouldn't be shared with a sitting politician or one who would suck much of the oxygen out of the room.  Maybe things will quiet down by 2025?


BTW, Troon was one of the best surprises of the trip.  It may be a blue-collar course in comparison to Muirfield, but I should be damned to play my remaining golf there.  You have excellent friends. Our rounds together there and at Gailes were greatly enjoyed and appreciated.


Tony,


Matthew 5:3- Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.  You are a most agreeable sort! (and that's a compliment)
       

[Bryan Izatt]

Lou,


I included those two or three sentences to provide context on why I couldn't wholeheartedly recommend the Ailsa since otherwise it's a fine course by a fine architect.  I thought that would fall under frank commentary, but apparently, for some it crosses the bounds.  He did after all impose tariffs on our steel and aluminum after declaring us a national security risk as a way to win the NAFTA 2.0 negotiation.  Just a negotiating technique I guess that should have been ignored.


Re the wind, I concede.  The historical records for the day were winds of 20 mph when we started going down to 15 mph when we finished.  Didn't seem that bad to me, but then I was using the Mark Pearce wind scale.   They were from the WSW not the south, if you want to correct your notes.


In our political spectrum I'm in the middle, neither right nor left. I grew up on the more conservative side but age brought a change in wisdom. Regardless I think we are almost all somewhat left of you. You're only now realizing that we see the world differently?! 


If you refer back to the tee photo of the 18th you'll see the group in front leaving the green.  Our pace was perfect, we never had to wait on a shot for the group in front to clear nor did we get pushed from behind.  And we finished near the time par for the course. What more could you ask.


Perhaps you could add some architectural comments to the thread.  Nobody else seems to have.  I'm not sure why that is on this golf architecture site other than that many may not have been there since 2015.

[Lou_Duran]

Self-awareness, my man Bryan!  If you believe that you are indeed in "the middle", I can understand why you might think "we are almost all somewhat left of you".  You live a very cloistered life.  In my circles I think that I am considered a pragmatic libertarian, extremely skeptical that someone else can make better decisions on my and my family's behalf and deathly afraid of the concentration of power at the national level.  I am the antithesis of a statist, Democrat or Republican.


As to learning that you and I live in two different worlds, I knew that within a minute of our meeting at Bandon in 2011.  Do you remember what you asked me immediately upon coming up to me? ("What do you think of regulation?")  Fortunately, I was tired and knew when I was being baited.  My simple answer, "Depends", sufficed for that night.


I am glad that you were able to fact-check me on the wind.  My notes were not informed by checking the internet.  I jotted down the direction of the wind for each hole on the nice yardage book they gave us and it was easy to check Google maps when I got home and reviewed the round.  The historical data may show the wind to have come from the "WSW" as you state; my notes based on real time experience indicate that the wind came primarily from the south, though it did switch a bit from time to time.


And God knows that I had plenty of time to take notes- a two ball playing in 4.5 hours with no one holding us up.  Mind you that the only urgency I felt was the gathering storm that we could see for several holes before finishing and which we failed to beat by 15 minutes!  Kudos to you for going back out to take pictures.  Me, after a nice hot shower, I was able to enjoy tea and biscuits in the dining area overlooking the course while reviewing my copious notes!


As to a discussion of the gca, I did note the position and severity of the bunkers and the challenging character of the course.  My comment about not being able to flight my ball also speaks to the routing and position of the hazards and other design features to take advantage of the site and provide a stern test from even the short middle tees (6500).  If at 7500 Aisla is a pushover for the pros, the problem is other than architecture.


The fact that I had four three putts probably says a little bit about the challenging green complexes.  I also had a hard time chipping and pitching the ball close to the hole, and I am probably better than average in this facet of the game.


I found that the predominant north/south orientation of the course was at least interrupted in the first four holes (S, N, S, N) and a bit in the back (11-15).  The doglegs were mostly moderate and fairly evenly divided (DLR, DLL).  At least from the 2nd tees (6500 yards), there was a nice variation of yardages, though on that day some of 4s played very long and the 5s a bit short.


I don't claim to know or understand the course from a single play, but I think it is one I could learn to play relatively well.  I would bet the farm that I can beat my score next time around, provided that the weather is similar.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Very nice photo tour Bryan. I appreciate the considerable amount of time you put into this.

You often hear of the "fairness" of Birkdale, but wouldn't Turnberry be as "fair." The fairways look quite flat and I didn't notice any blind shots in your tour. With the elimination of the par four 9th, where hitting the crowned fairway was always difficult, I'd say the pros would like it even more than before.

Regarding the links feeling, would it be in the the same category as Lytham and Muirfield?

The scruffy/neat bunkering style looks a bit strange in places, especially that dougnut bunker on the 3rd, where the island is rough, but the outer bunker edges are perfectly manicured. I don't understand the reasoning for this.

[Bryan Izatt]

Donal,


So nice to hear from you again.  I hope your wife is well. And, you too in these corona virus times.


I can't think of any hole off the top that would be "unfair" at Ailsa.  Some/many of the pot bunkers would be very penal if you get up too close to the face and the rough could be very tough if left to grow but I don't know if the qualifies as unfair.  There's no quirk to consider unfair.  My memories of Birkdale are a little fuzzy now, but I would say there are many similarities to to the Ailsa.  Some of the holes run between the dunes a la Birkdale for instance.  On the other hand I think that the Ailsa has more elevation change in play, the fairways have a bit more movement, and the greens are significantly more undulating. But on hole I think the pros would see it as fair.


I've only seen Muirfield from outside the fence but my sense is that Ailsa has more of a linksy feel to it than Lytham or Muirfield, perhaps because it is closer to the water. There is certainly more elevation change than at Lytham or Muirfield.  The fairways are certainly not as linksy as TOC, or North Berwick or other older links courses, and is in that way like Muirfield and Lytham.


The scruffy/neat bunker mix was more evident in the pictures than what I recall when playing but it is certainly noticeable and sort of strange indeed.  Did Ebert do something similar at Portrush.  I've never made it there.


Keep well.

[Bryan Izatt]

Lou,

I'm forever learning from you.  New words I had to look up - "statist".  Pragmatic libertarian - who knew there were so many variations of libertarians either socially or economically.  My head positively spins.



Funny, my first recollection of you is you being late for the tee time at Old Macdonald (lost clubs or some such) and having you whinging down the first fairway about having to give me handicap strokes when we'd never played together before.   

Re the wind again.  You might want to use Google Earth instead.  The ruler shows you direction in degrees.  The holes from 4 through 7 are generally around 10° west of North.  If you look at the picture of the 4th hole you'll see the flag is blowing mostly across. and the whitecaps in the sea are coming mostly onshore.  That would mean the wind was coming from the WSW or SW, which is the prevailing wind by the way.  The wind comes from the south at 15-20 mph less than 0.5% of the time.  If you look at the 9th hole photo from behind the green the flag is coming almost directly from the tee.  That hole plays more or less North-East.  The wind was directly behind so was coming from the South-West.  QED.

Re pace of play, we could have finished in 4:15 maybe and missed the squall by playing up the asses of the group in front but would that have been fun?  Maybe they would have let us through for us only to run into the group in front of them.  Four and a half hours was the recommended pace play and it seemed the group in front and back played at that speed.  Again, I'd rather play continuously at a leisurely pace rather than start and wait so as to pressure the group in front to speed up.  I guess this is why you prefer to be first off at home.

Thanks for the architecture comments. 

I'm sure you could beat your score on a second or subsequent play, so I'll pass on the bet.

[Bryan Izatt]

I suspect that if we got ANGC or Pine Valley or CPC or NGLA or any of our favorites to reveal their membership list, we would find many names on both right and left which were boycott-worthy.  I'm sure the Honorable Company of Edinburgh Golfers contains at least some members that are not so... honorable. 

That is why these clubs keep their membership lists under wraps.

So I would suggest that actively expressing ANY political opinion at all when talking about golf architecture puts one in grave danger of hypocrisy.

Think about it.  If one delved into the secret files of Trump Turnberry, one might find some very high profile (and very rich) lefties that Bryan would be happy to keep company with!   Horrors!

It's usually best to keep one's mouth shut about things not salient to the matters at hand.

I'm not sure what to make of your post.    It would be entirely shocking if that was the reason those clubs kept their memberships private. 

I don't know you and you don't know me, so if the hypocrisy remark was aimed at me, you missed the mark.  And your assertion that expressing political opinion here somehow demonstrates hypocrisy is just plain puzzling.

I have played with people of all kinds of political beliefs and generally it has never been an issue.  It certainly wasn't a factor in playing Turnberry - after all I played with a self-described pragmatic libertarian.  I could care less who plays there. I care about the owner.

Perhaps you should have taken the advice of your last sentence before posting.

Do you have any architectural comment about the matter at hand  - Turnberry Ailsa?

[Sean_A]

Bryan

Thanks for the tour. Turnberry strikes me as a fairly straight forward design. There really wasn't much deception or quirk before the course was Trumped and it doesn't look as though any was added.  I really wanted to see Turnberry after the work was completed, but it all seems slightly sterile.  In that regard, very similar to much of the reworking we see around GB&I these days...I really should say since at least WWII. Perhaps my tolerance level for run of the mill very good is not as high as it was since my last visit about 13 years ago. 

Ciao

[Bryan Izatt]

Sean,


Based on the kinds of courses you seem to favor I don't think you'd find the Ailsa inspiring - it is a big bold championship course.  I didn't find it sterile, but it certainly doesn't look like its been there for a hundred years.  Give it time to age a bit and maybe it will become more to your taste.  Oh, and there are 90+ bunkers that might not fit your eye, although there is one green on the course that has no bunkers around it.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Based on the kinds of courses you seem to favor I don't think you'd find the Ailsa inspiring - it is a big bold championship course.  I didn't find it sterile, but it certainly doesn't look like its been there for a hundred years.  Give it time to age a bit and maybe it will become more to your taste.  Oh, and there are 90+ bunkers that might not fit your eye, although there is one green on the course that has no bunkers around it.

Turnberry is a good example of how, for me, a course can be very good or great, yet not a course which I find wholly appealing. I never got the sense of the unexpected at Turnberry and that could well be due to its post WWII rebuild. I think this is when architecture is really starting to embrace codification.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

I suspect that if we got ANGC or Pine Valley or CPC or NGLA or any of our favorites to reveal their membership list, we would find many names on both right and left which were boycott-worthy.  I'm sure the Honorable Company of Edinburgh Golfers contains at least some members that are not so... honorable.

There is, of course, something of a difference between being just one member of a club amongst many and being the owner of a course you then choose to name after yourself.  Or is that too subtle a distinction for you?

[Michael Whitaker]

I suspect that if we got ANGC or Pine Valley or CPC or NGLA or any of our favorites to reveal their membership list, we would find many names on both right and left which were boycott-worthy.  I'm sure the Honorable Company of Edinburgh Golfers contains at least some members that are not so... honorable.

There is, of course, something of a difference between being just one member of a club amongst many and being the owner of a course you then choose to name after yourself.  Or is that too subtle a distinction for you?

Actually, Mark, the owner is the Trump Organization which was created by and named after Donald’s father, Fred. Too subtle?

[Mark Pearce]

I suspect that if we got ANGC or Pine Valley or CPC or NGLA or any of our favorites to reveal their membership list, we would find many names on both right and left which were boycott-worthy.  I'm sure the Honorable Company of Edinburgh Golfers contains at least some members that are not so... honorable.

There is, of course, something of a difference between being just one member of a club amongst many and being the owner of a course you then choose to name after yourself.  Or is that too subtle a distinction for you?

Actually, Mark, the owner is the Trump Organization which was created by and named after Donald’s father, Fred. Too subtle?

And Donald has no interest in the Trump Organization?  He's just a normal member?  Really Mike, that's not even close to countering my point.

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