Which existing course on a terrific site ....

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Country Club of the Rockies. Early Nicklaus design that can only be described as "odd." An incredibly flat site (huge advantage in the Rocky Mountains), actually walkable in a cartball haven, views for days, enough good land to not have the classic mountain site "cram" holes. Great soils and turf conditions due to the Eagle river running through the site. Shakeup required due to a once solid but aging membership.

Good call - I worked the greens crew there for a summer in the early 90's. Containment mound heaven -- the 3? holes back and forth across the Eagle were the best. Very severe greens, I remember one 3 tiered Mickey Mouse shaped green, I think they softened 18 after I left as you couldn't keep a putt from above the ridge on the green. It was an awesome place to work -- we called it a turf museum -- spent many afternoons as the only person on the course. Really liked the alternate fairway hole as hole location made one or the other preferable.

Yep. There's a couple straight up "holes" in a couple greens. Literally like a bunker in the green except it's bentgrass maintained at greens height. 2nd hole center left for example (the alternate fairway hole). Plus you can't see like half the bunkers. It's very linksy in that regard and since it's a member's course I guess that's kind of cool. What about how 9 and 18 are virtual mirrors of each other?  Or the 5th hole where a massive bunker juts out into a pond?


How'd you like working for KR?

[JC Jones]

Ira,


I found an old RTJ CPC Renovation routing plan on the dark web.  Here is a quick Google Earth view of how he envisioned things...

18 as 1 becomes better.  17 and 16 play the same, 15 too for the most part just uphill.  14 goes from trainwreck to an awesome launch down into the dunes to 13 greensite.  It'd be a shame if 8,9 & 5 played differently but the other holes could use an upgrade for sure.

[Mark Pearce]

Noordwijkse.  World class land.  Very good course which could be world class.

Mark,


They surely need more land (presumably tricky given the EU's aversion to building in sand dunes) to avoid having to play those 3 holes in the trees? And, that is tricky because 4, (from memory a good hole) is a long way from the 8th tee.
I'm thinking you could maybe make an acceptable hole from somewhere near there to the 7th green and get out that way?

Mike,


You're almost certainly right.  You're the architect and will have played the course in professional competition, I expect?  I don't recall thinking that the routing was remarkably compact but I have a very poor sense of the layout of holes, rather just seeing the holes themselves.  I wonder whether the demand (both as a tour venue but also as a club whose membership I got the impression like having a hard course) for length is an impediment, too.  What struck me was the number of greens which called for a long, high approach, where a rise in front of the green defeated a running approach but a wonderful piece of land.


You will also be right about the difficulty of getting permission to work in those dunes but for the purposes of this thread, can't we assume that you're allowed to do what you want with the property?


I wish more was known about the original Colt course from which the club moved (David D, I'm remembering that right, aren't I?).   

[Garland Bayley]

Burnham & Berrow

Mostly needs some sheep.

[Thomas Dai]

Burnham & Berrow

Mostly needs some sheep.

Not many course don’t! And a few goats too.
Atb

[Cal Seifert]

Bay Harbor
Trump Ferry Point - the site isn't exactly 'terrific' but has some movement and the views are hard to beat.  The faux-links dunes in between every hole feel like isles in a grocery store.

[Tim Martin]

Bay Harbor
Trump Ferry Point - the site isn't exactly 'terrific' but has some movement and the views are hard to beat.  The faux-links dunes in between every hole feel like isles in a grocery store.

Trump Ferry Point was blessed with some nice long views. As far as the site it is completely manufactured.

[Tim Leahy]

Sandpiper near Santa Barbara, Ca sits on a better site than Torrey Pines and has a few good ocean front holes but gets no top 100 votes and could become a top 100 with a Doak update in my opinion.

[JimB]

Sandpiper struggles partially because the land slopes away from the ocean cliffs so holes like 14 play along the cliff but you can't see the ocean and it isn't in play. Also the soil is not great and it's an old oil field that would need a lot of environmental work to get approval.

Not too far up Highway 1 there is La Purisima. Sitting on a sand base it has a lot of potential.
Near there is Marshallia Ranch. Talk about great sand and dunes!

[William_G]

Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?

that is interesting, reverse the course 18 green is #1 tee, etc...


RTJSr. did that somewhere

[Michael Goldstein]

Noordwijkse.  World class land.  Very good course which could be world class.

Mark,


I can't believe you beat me to the punch line on this. Good call!


There is no course I can think of in any that I have seen that has the potential to be world class on an amazing property that is in more need of and could benefit more from a thorough renovation than Noordwijkse.


At this point I don't think that's ever going to happen, sadly. There is a faction at the club that in light of overwhelming proof, which we most certainly have, are averse to change and believe the course is perfect just the way it is.


But it would help if Golf Club Atlas started a petition, lead by a knowledgable lawyer from the UK urging the club to make the most of the gift that nature has provided them.


 

Hi David,
This was the first course that came to my mind. But I'll stay out of any petition!
And Mike Clayton, if the trees were cut down I don't think the land would be too different underneath.


The other course that came to mind was Ohope in New Zealand. 
 

[Tim_Weiman]

Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?

Sorry to be rude, but I have been on this site for a long time and don’t remember ever seeing a worse suggestion.

[JC Jones]

Can you imagine how great Cypress would be if they went to the ocean first via 18 corridor?

Sorry to be rude, but I have been on this site for a long time and don’t remember ever seeing a worse suggestion.

That is all the validation I need.

[Kalen Braley]

Sandpiper near Santa Barbara, Ca sits on a better site than Torrey Pines and has a few good ocean front holes but gets no top 100 votes and could become a top 100 with a Doak update in my opinion.

I'm not so sure.  Tom recently said this about Sand Piper:

"One course where I beat my head against the wall trying to find a better solution is Sandpiper, just north of Santa Barbara.  It's got just as much frontage on the ocean as Pacific Dunes does, and better weather, but it's nowhere near the golf course.  A lot of that is because the inland parts are not beautiful sand dunes as in Oregon, but the coastal holes do not get as much bang out of the coastline as you'd expect.  I tried for quite a while to find a better solution, but eventually gave up on it.  Maybe someone smarter than me will figure it out someday, but then they would have to get the California Coastal Commission to say okay to it."

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67916.msg1625234.html#msg1625234

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
You are likely correct about the Old Head site.  Those other limitations clearly lead to the course being what it is.  If money wasn't an issue though (like at Whistling Straits for example) then who knows what could have been.
Mark

[Bruce Katona]

Somerset Hills.


I was just looking at a Google earth view.  It appears the club owns land to the west of the clubhouse (where cart storage is located) to extend the 18th hole to a length which may be a better finish - that's always been the one knock on the course.


Then again the membership is likely quite pleased with what they have in place, but this is a theoretical exercise.

[Tim Leahy]

Sandpiper near Santa Barbara, Ca sits on a better site than Torrey Pines and has a few good ocean front holes but gets no top 100 votes and could become a top 100 with a Doak update in my opinion.

I'm not so sure.  Tom recently said this about Sand Piper:

"One course where I beat my head against the wall trying to find a better solution is Sandpiper, just north of Santa Barbara.  It's got just as much frontage on the ocean as Pacific Dunes does, and better weather, but it's nowhere near the golf course.  A lot of that is because the inland parts are not beautiful sand dunes as in Oregon, but the coastal holes do not get as much bang out of the coastline as you'd expect.  I tried for quite a while to find a better solution, but eventually gave up on it.  Maybe someone smarter than me will figure it out someday, but then they would have to get the California Coastal Commission to say okay to it."

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67916.msg1625234.html#msg1625234

At least I am not the only one thinking about it. Sounds like a challenge to the designers out there.

[Anthony Butler]

All the taken up by St. Michaels, Randwick and The Coast in Sydney.


Even Long Bay Gaol is on some prime golfing land.

[Tim Gavrich]

The Fort Pierce, FL muni, Indian Hills, is on a nice hilly, compact (for this part of the world) site. The course was originally designed by Herbert Strong but was redone into mediocrity around 2004. The place drains incredibly well, and could have been awesome if approached differently.


With the PGA of America getting involved in the redo of the West Palm Beach muni, they have an opportunity to do something special on another phenomenal (for Florida) site. I kinda liked the Mark McCumber version, but excited to see what Gil Hanse comes up with.

[Buck Wolter]

Country Club of the Rockies. Early Nicklaus design that can only be described as "odd." An incredibly flat site (huge advantage in the Rocky Mountains), actually walkable in a cartball haven, views for days, enough good land to not have the classic mountain site "cram" holes. Great soils and turf conditions due to the Eagle river running through the site. Shakeup required due to a once solid but aging membership.

Good call - I worked the greens crew there for a summer in the early 90's. Containment mound heaven -- the 3? holes back and forth across the Eagle were the best. Very severe greens, I remember one 3 tiered Mickey Mouse shaped green, I think they softened 18 after I left as you couldn't keep a putt from above the ridge on the green. It was an awesome place to work -- we called it a turf museum -- spent many afternoons as the only person on the course. Really liked the alternate fairway hole as hole location made one or the other preferable.

Yep. There's a couple straight up "holes" in a couple greens. Literally like a bunker in the green except it's bentgrass maintained at greens height. 2nd hole center left for example (the alternate fairway hole). Plus you can't see like half the bunkers. It's very linksy in that regard and since it's a member's course I guess that's kind of cool. What about how 9 and 18 are virtual mirrors of each other?  Or the 5th hole where a massive bunker juts out into a pond?


How'd you like working for KR?

Tom-
I don't recall the Super's name at the time -- Jeff I think (I think KR was at Beaver Creek that year if I remember right). I lived in an apartment on the river in Avon. It was such an awesome summer, wake early and work, play golf, mountain bike on Bachelor's Gulch pre-BC ski hills, lots of nights at the Gashouse or the Village. My fist day was cutting elk pee dead spots out of the greens and my last day was irrigation blowout in a blizzard at the end of October.  I almost died on #5 driving my Diahatsu backwards down the fairway and flew into a bunker off the mounds that obscured it --landed right in the middle of the bunker up to the axles in sand -- it could have been bad. I was a good greens mower but I was hard on the bigger equipment --the mechanic hated me. I was one of the few golfers on the crew so I cut holes almost every day.

Hard to leave the Vail Valley.