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Ian Mackenzie

  • Total Karma: 0
The future of caddies?
« on: April 30, 2020, 09:59:22 AM »
Not on Tour, but at clubs and resorts.

Given that, in the last few years, we have seen:


1. Range finders and distance measurement devices become common.
2. Lightweight bags become more standard.
3. No need now to tend or remove the flag post USGA new rules.
4. And now COVID-19 fears.


I was a caddy in my teens. I play out of a club that has a rich caddy tradition and was Chick Evan's home club.
I am not advocating for more "Cart-Balling" at all, but wondering if rules progression of the game combined with some recent technology are  threatening the future of the caddy in general.


Caddies are NOT permitted currently until new social distancing guidelines "expire".
Is this the death blow for caddies?


Thoughts?

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2020, 10:37:04 AM »
Caddies are NOT permitted currently until new social distancing guidelines "expire".



Curious if this is your opinion or a regional policy.  There is nothing out there on the national level that says caddies are not permitted.  And there are several major resorts that are open where caddies are currently working.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: -5
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2020, 10:57:30 AM »
I don't think caddies will go away forever, just like eventually Disneyland is going to reopen.


However, I think it's going to be a bad year for caddies everywhere with the social distancing guidelines. They might still be needed at a place like Bandon, but then again I think Bandon would have to be in for a slower year all things together?
H.P.S.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2020, 10:57:54 AM »
Caddies won't go away until the first caddie sues his club for improper protection from the virus. I'd be surprised if any club is requiring golfers to wear masks.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2020, 11:00:18 AM »
The death knell for caddies in the UK came with the advent of the now ubiquitous electric trolley.


Caddies now exist only where there are American and Japanese tourists to hire them. Even retired colonels use a Motocaddy these days.

Cal Seifert

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2020, 11:05:40 AM »
The high end private clubs will always have caddies as long as playing with a caddy is perceived as luxurious and high end. 

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2020, 11:08:18 AM »
Caddies won't go away until the first caddie sues his club for improper protection from the virus. I'd be surprised if any club is requiring golfers to wear masks.


I had a member tell me just two days ago that "everyone wants to take a caddie"
I replied "that's not what I'm hearing"
he said well "I do and all of my friends do as long as they wear a facemask and gloves"

I said "it's not the caddies that we're worried about doing the spreading-they're not the ones going in and out of Manhattan"


Our caddies are being paid through May for now, then we reevaluate. If no caddying then we pay them through June.
perhaps some forecaddying with personal rakes and 20 feet social distancing as we get into summer, but they'll not be touching the same surfaces, nor providing any advice from less than 20 feet.


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Fitz

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2020, 11:09:11 AM »
Caddies are NOT permitted currently until new social distancing guidelines "expire".



Curious if this is your opinion or a regional policy.  There is nothing out there on the national level that says caddies are not permitted.  And there are several major resorts that are open where caddies are currently working.


Sven, in Illinois, courses are permitted to open May 1, but with a heavy dose of restrictions.  One of those restrictions is that you have to carry/push/pull your own bag - caddies are not permitted under the current rules.  Neither are course provided push/pull/driven carts.  We are also limited to twosomes for the time being.

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2020, 11:10:02 AM »
How did people make the transition from horses to cars? People must have loved their horses. Was there a single trigger point?

Ian Mackenzie

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2020, 11:36:29 AM »
Caddies are NOT permitted currently until new social distancing guidelines "expire".



Curious if this is your opinion or a regional policy.  There is nothing out there on the national level that says caddies are not permitted.  And there are several major resorts that are open where caddies are currently working.


I would NEVER opine on such a thing.


This are guidelines from the Governor of Illinois. Also in place in Arizona (I am told from a close friend at Whisper Rock) and other states.

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2020, 12:02:01 PM »
So your very general statement was actually limited to two states.  Got it.

We're in the middle of trying to figure out what caddying is going to look like out here at Bandon.  Demand is not a question.  I have returning guests booked through the end of the summer who have indicated they will be taking caddies.  The biggest question for us is if the state lays out some kind of mandate.

We've spent a good bit of time researching this topic, including speaking to an expert in the infectious disease arena.  Copied below is a very general introduction to caddying during the Covid-19 era.

“You don’t have to be scared of the outside world.”  Dr. Dave Price

“Golf could be the safest sport going forward.” – Dr. Karyemaitre Aliffe

As the nation has learned, Covid-19 is primarily transmitted by touch, whether it be touching an infected individual or a surface on which the virus is present.  Although the virus can be transmitted by aspiration, the vast majority of cases involve transmission by an individual touching something with their hands and then touching their face, from where the virus enters the body.

With that in mind, there are six important overriding practices that govern any practice or procedures to be put in place, including:

-Cognizance of how you use your hands
-Using hand sanitizer after touching any uncertain surfaces or objects
-Not touching your face and using a mask to prevent hand to face contact
-Staying 3 to 6 feet from other people when outside your home
-Shrinking your social circle
-For instances of significant exposure, using a sprayed sanitizer

The guidelines we read about and the general practices outlined above have been designed for worst possible case exposure scenarios, essentially indoor activities in areas where one might be exposed to a good number of people.  With respect to the game of golf, an outdoor activity spread over a vast area with minimal touching of objects, the more restrictive practices may not be necessary, but following them will make playing the game and caddying for golfers even more safe.


As with all things caddie related, what may work at one course, club or resort will not necessarily work everywhere.  Right now there are different governing bodies, including several national golf organizations, making recommendations on caddying.  What we are seeing is a general overreaction.  There are very simple practices that can be put in place that can nearly eliminate the person to person contact between a player and a caddie, several of which are going to be part of golf anyway (i.e. cup stoppers, no rakes, etc.).  Adding in (a) knowledge of the benefits of and (b) the use of sanitizing wipes and sanitizing sprays, and you can create an extremely safe environment including caddies. 

Before Kavanaugh can chime in on how you can't trust a group of weed hounds to follow a set of practices, it should be noted that there are caddies on the front line of this conversation on a national level.  Caddies know that making their golfers feel more safe is going to be part of the equation going forward. 

Looking forward to the normal GCA backlash on caddying in general.  Whenever conversations arise in this discussion group on these topics, it always feels like a group of vegetarians discussing the best cut of steak.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 12:05:18 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2020, 12:11:47 PM »
I’m with Wayne on this one. The golfers are the problem. Out of town paying big bucks does not a rule follower make. Caddies will be putting their lives on the line. The cost benefit ratio is the question. 

Wayne_Kozun

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2020, 12:19:13 PM »
The high end private clubs will always have caddies as long as playing with a caddy is perceived as luxurious and high end.
Isn't that just a small number of high end private clubs in parts of the US?  For club players here in Canada (with less than a handful of exceptions) they went a while ago.  Same thing for the UK and Aus.

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2020, 12:20:01 PM »
I’m with Wayne on this one. The golfers are the problem. Out of town paying big bucks does not a rule follower make. Caddies will be putting their lives on the line. The cost benefit ratio is the question.


John:


It becomes a very interesting internal debate when all of the platitudes one way or the other get put to a personal test. 


The caddies don't make the decisions on opening or closing golf courses.  For those that will choose to work, all that can be asked is that they are cognizant and respectful of the safety of others.


Sven 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2020, 12:32:17 PM »
Our caddies are being paid through May for now, then we reevaluate. If no caddying then we pay them through June.


Jeff:


Are your caddies employees or independent contractors?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Michael Wolf

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2020, 12:53:33 PM »
I'd consider my home clubs caddy program at risk of at least seeing a fall off when caddies are brought back. We are a walking only course that doesn't have cart paths. Members and guests always have the choice to carry their own or hire adult caddies. I believe we operate the only caddie program in our state.


We're currently operating with no pro shop, caddies or guest play. We've been subsidizing our furloughed caddies on a sliding scale based on previous level of activity and years of service.  But we've had a steady increase in rounds played by local members carrying their own bags. And some anecdotal comments on lightening up their bags, playing with half sets, etc. Plus near universal appreciation at saving the $100 a round. It will be interesting how long it takes before the new carrying habits take hold. Or if the % of caddy rounds bounces back once they (and hotter temperatures) return.


I'd be interested if anyone could offer examples of private clubs that have recently transitioned from adult caddies to using teenagers? How was the transition made? Lessons learned?


Thanks,
Michael

Pete_Pittock

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2020, 01:35:43 PM »
Sven,
My body is at the point where I require a cart.  Bandon, among other places, requires a caddy to drive the cart. Because of the social distancing, is this now going the way of the dodo? Let me know as I was planning on a two day final journey for PD and the Sheepranch.






Pete_Pittock

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2020, 01:37:16 PM »
It will be interesting to see tour golf. Will players be carrying their own clubs, or will caddies be all moon-suited up?

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2020, 01:38:18 PM »
Sven,
My body is at the point where I require a cart.  Bandon, among other places, requires a caddy to drive the cart. Because of the social distancing, is this now going the way of the dodo? Let me know as I was planning on a two day final journey for PD and the Sheepranch.


Pete:


I don't have an answer for you yet on that front.  There are a lot of moving pieces right now with the resort preparing to reopen.  I expect this will be addressed soon.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2020, 02:06:36 PM »
It is sad but it is going to be a challenge for many clubs to keep caddies for many different reasons.  My home club in PA is hoping to open soon but there will be no caddies allowed.  They are allowing walking at anytime and even pull carts which they had never done before.  I don't see them reversing that decision any time soon (if ever) and that alone will be impactful to caddies.  I suspect many other clubs will do the same.  My friend in Austria said the courses there are opening May 1st and no caddies are allowed. Courses in Louisiana are open and I know my friend's club in Baton Rouge is not allowing caddies.  He said only one person per cart and walking and pull carts allowed anytime.  Not sure how a caddie wearing gloves helps.  Who knows what they touch with their gloves before they hand you a club?  The gloves protect the caddy not the player.  A forecaddie makes more sense as they can social distance for players riding in carts.  The forecaddie can shout distances, fix divots, rake bunkers,.. and players can handle their own clubs, etc. 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 02:37:05 PM by Mark_Fine »

Ian Mackenzie

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2020, 02:27:34 PM »
So your very general statement was actually limited to two states.  Got it.

We're in the middle of trying to figure out what caddying is going to look like out here at Bandon.  Demand is not a question.  I have returning guests booked through the end of the summer who have indicated they will be taking caddies.  The biggest question for us is if the state lays out some kind of mandate.

We've spent a good bit of time researching this topic, including speaking to an expert in the infectious disease arena.  Copied below is a very general introduction to caddying during the Covid-19 era.

“You don’t have to be scared of the outside world.”  Dr. Dave Price

“Golf could be the safest sport going forward.” – Dr. Karyemaitre Aliffe

As the nation has learned, Covid-19 is primarily transmitted by touch, whether it be touching an infected individual or a surface on which the virus is present.  Although the virus can be transmitted by aspiration, the vast majority of cases involve transmission by an individual touching something with their hands and then touching their face, from where the virus enters the body.

With that in mind, there are six important overriding practices that govern any practice or procedures to be put in place, including:

-Cognizance of how you use your hands
-Using hand sanitizer after touching any uncertain surfaces or objects
-Not touching your face and using a mask to prevent hand to face contact
-Staying 3 to 6 feet from other people when outside your home
-Shrinking your social circle
-For instances of significant exposure, using a sprayed sanitizer

The guidelines we read about and the general practices outlined above have been designed for worst possible case exposure scenarios, essentially indoor activities in areas where one might be exposed to a good number of people.  With respect to the game of golf, an outdoor activity spread over a vast area with minimal touching of objects, the more restrictive practices may not be necessary, but following them will make playing the game and caddying for golfers even more safe.


As with all things caddie related, what may work at one course, club or resort will not necessarily work everywhere.  Right now there are different governing bodies, including several national golf organizations, making recommendations on caddying.  What we are seeing is a general overreaction.  There are very simple practices that can be put in place that can nearly eliminate the person to person contact between a player and a caddie, several of which are going to be part of golf anyway (i.e. cup stoppers, no rakes, etc.).  Adding in (a) knowledge of the benefits of and (b) the use of sanitizing wipes and sanitizing sprays, and you can create an extremely safe environment including caddies. 

Before Kavanaugh can chime in on how you can't trust a group of weed hounds to follow a set of practices, it should be noted that there are caddies on the front line of this conversation on a national level.  Caddies know that making their golfers feel more safe is going to be part of the equation going forward. 

Looking forward to the normal GCA backlash on caddying in general.  Whenever conversations arise in this discussion group on these topics, it always feels like a group of vegetarians discussing the best cut of steak.


Sven get off your semantic high-horse, remove your ex-lawyers" hat ...!... ;)


This is the same in many states. I have neither the time or inclination to do a state-by-state analysis.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 02:50:14 PM by Ian Mackenzie »

John Kavanaugh

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2020, 02:55:42 PM »
The problem is that in the past caddies haven't ever been an expense to a club. They have simply been a revenue gold mine for destination courses. I don't think getting rid of them is going to be any easier than firing Kramer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5XT9CifIlY

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2020, 03:00:58 PM »
What about the caddy situation from a worldwide perspective? In particular they're a significant element within golf in Asia.
atb

Sven Nilsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2020, 04:01:06 PM »

Sven get off your semantic high-horse, remove your ex-lawyers" hat ...!... ;)


This is the same in many states. I have neither the time or inclination to do a state-by-state analysis.


Ian -


You made the general statement.  General statements don't work in this conversation.  That was my point.


I'll keep riding my high-horse if it means some of the folks out here get some work as opposed to having to sit on the sidelines.


I may be an ex-lawyer but right now I'm an out of work caddie.  There's only a couple of us around here seeing all of this from that perspective.


Sven



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: The future of caddies?
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2020, 05:13:34 PM »
Michigan does not allow caddies for now. 
But, we don't allow golf carts either, according to the newspaper reports. 


Crystal Downs does not open until May 15 so I have yet to see the new rules in action.