A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses

[MCirba]

David Bowen,
That's a terrific description of Bristol Harbour, thanks.   I'd simply concur that the greens are very unexpectedly interesting for a course of that relatively modern vintage.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Found some pics of Tamiment:

[Tom_Doak]

David Bowen,
That's a terrific description of Bristol Harbour, thanks.   I'd simply concur that the greens are very unexpectedly interesting for a course of that relatively modern vintage.

Indeed, thanks for the write up, David.  A good set of greens is worth a point and a half on the Doak Scale.


Just for kicks, I went back to Google Earth to check out the elevation change reported on the 14th hole, because most people wildly overestimate the size of hills on a golf course.  Tee:  1028 feet.  Crest of fairway:  1032 feet.  Green:  967 feet.  So, a 65-foot drop, not 150 feet.  If you had a 150-foot drop on a 150-yard shot you could easily putt, but you couldn't easily get the ball to stop on the green when it got there.

[Bernie Bell]

Seven Oaks is not a monster, if I understand correctly what the original question means.  Still a helluva test from the back tees.  (Hosted NCAAs in mid 70s - Scott Simpson medalist.)

RTJ "has the knack of designing courses that look natural, are fun to play, judiciously punish bad shots and reward good shots, and, while providing a stiff test for the expert, do not break the back of the spirit of the average golfer."  HW Wind 1951.

"Golf today, in all honesty, is what the golf course architects have made it -- a game of relaxed recreation and limitless enjoyment for millions and a demanding examination of exacting standards for those few who would seek to excel -- depending on the requirements of the moment."  RTJ, Foreword to Cornish and Whitten.

Do these passages not describe Seven Oaks?

Seven Oaks dull, not interesting?  "This aggression will not stand, man!"  I am totally biased by sentimental connection to the place, but objectively don't the greens alone elevate Seven Oaks well above dull?  If there are a better set of greens in Central NY, where are they?  Fairway bunkers, meh.  I think they're fixing to add some, based on RTJ drawings, so perhaps that will spice it up for you tigers.  Leatherstocking is a Doak 6, is Seven Oaks not its equal?  Would you hesitate to recommend to anyone on this site that it's worth an hour's detour off of the Thruway, 81 or 88 to play?

[Ronald Montesano]

The first three holes at Seven Oaks would be at home on most Doak 8s.

[Bernie Bell]

Certainly no gentle handshake, that's for sure!!

[Ronald Montesano]

I played Bristol Harbor once, in the early days of BuffaloGolfer.Com, when it was buffgolf.org. URLs change over time. I don't remember the greens being interesting, nor do I remember then being dull. I should get back. If I can find photos, I'll post them somehow.


Canandaigua the village rests on the shores of its eponymous lake, and is a lovely place to visit. There is a nice course at the southern end, called Reservoir Creek. Front nine is walkable, while the back is cart golf through wetlands. Local high school matches never use the back.

[David Bowen]

Bernie:  I like Seven Oaks as well.  The dullness I referred to was not the greens, but rather hitting off every tee without hazards.  Granted there are a couple creeks in play, on 7 and 18 if I recall, but overall there is little definition off the tee.  This leads to a bombs away off every tee mentality, not that I am by any means a bomber.


As for better greens in CNY, Teugega is about an hour north and provides some of Ross' finest.  Really fun and varied.  They are in the running for the best greens in all of upstate NYS, which is saying something.


I have never played the Cornell course.  I have heard that like Bristol Harbour, there is a wooded 9 and an open 9.


Tom:  Yes, in hindsight, an overestimation of the drop shot on the 14th at BH, but it is pretty dramatic.  Not the best hole, but it tends to get the attention.

[Tom_Doak]

The thing that impressed me most about the Cornell course was how much harder it got going back to the blue tees.  It was generally only about 30 yards per hole, but it got much tougher to get to the best angle for the approach shots.  [I guess I was a short hitter, too, so that didn't help.]


I believe the two nines were built a few years apart, with the more open back nine on land that had been part of Tillinghast's Country Club of Ithaca course, before Cornell bought it for dorms and gave the Country Club money to build a new Geoff Cornish track a bit further north.  Nice trade there!

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

If you drive the New York Thruway going towards Albany, a few miles before the RT. 17 intersection, there are some nice Meadows that look like ideal golf terrain.  One of the Meadows actually has some abandoned holes because most of the course was list to the Thruway.  I agree that Tuxedo is among his best designs.  Fairview and Patterson are superb layouts as well.

[Tom_Doak]

If you drive the New York Thruway going towards Albany, a few miles before the RT. 17 intersection, there are some nice Meadows that look like ideal golf terrain.  One of the Meadows actually has some abandoned holes because most of the course was list to the Thruway.  I agree that Tuxedo is among his best designs.  Fairview and Patterson are superb layouts as well.

Oh, wow, I think I know just where that is.  That was how I would head to Cornell from home in Stamford, so I have driven that stretch of road maybe 20 times.

[Buck Wolter]

The thing that impressed me most about the Cornell course was how much harder it got going back to the blue tees.  It was generally only about 30 yards per hole, but it got much tougher to get to the best angle for the approach shots.  [I guess I was a short hitter, too, so that didn't help.]

I was thinking the same thing about Bellerive -- it was a beast from the blues but we moved up to the whites once and I had one of my best rounds ever.

[Matthew Petersen]

Several people have mentioned Wigwam Gold and Blue, west of Phoenix, which are an interesting case study.


Though built a few years after Desert Forest (1965) the Wigwam courses are still of the "bring the midwest to the desert" school, with wall-to-wall grass (somewhat reduced over the years) and abundant tree planting. The Gold is certainly a "monster" type of course. Both Gold and Blue have been tinkered with a lot over the years, but the current iteration of the Gold is nearly 7,400 yards. The most recent renovation actually removed a lot of trees and quite a few bunkers so it's not quite a RTJ-monstery as it was when I first played it, but it still has the small push up greens and tight doglegs you expect.


The Blue was sort of his "family" offering for the resort, an acknowledgement that not everyone who would come and stay at the resort would want to play a brutal course like the Gold. Today's iteration of the Blue is barely 6,000 yards, though the RTJ holes are still unmistakably him  (runway tees, small push up greens, the bunkering, etc). So it's no pushover of a course, but but it's significantly shorter than the Gold and always has been.

[MCirba]

Steve Shaffer,

The first two holes at Tamiment were terrific, with the 2nd being a wonderful par three to a severely sloped green.
Much of the rest of the course just blends in the memory banks...think maybe 17 was a 600+ tyrant and 18 was a nice finish.

However, I'm suspect of the last two pictures.   In fact, I'd bet dimes to donuts that the last picture you posted is the 16th hole of the course formerly known as "Country Club of The Poconos at Big Ridge", which bears the dubious distinction of traversing 12 MILES from the first tee to the 18th green.  One would think on such a long journey that Jim Fazio might have found a good golf hole or two but you'd be mistaken. 

It has since become a municipal course, which now with walking only restrictions might be worth playing. 

Or, I might get eaten by a bear.   Which would be merciful, frankly.

[MCirba]

I love Leatherstocking, and like Seven Oaks and RTJ Cornell.

My Doak Scale scores would be 7, 5.5, and 5, respectively.   Yeah, i know half points are blasphemy but I find them useful.

[Ronald Montesano]

Wait, how did Leatherstocking get in this thread?

[Bernie Bell]

Wait, how did Leatherstocking get in this thread?

Ron, I introduced Leatherstocking as comparison to Seven Oaks only because it is the only proximate course in the Confidential Guide that I've played.  Teugega is also given a 6 in the book, and Yahnundasis a 5, but I haven't played them (yet).  I'm not so keen on the Doak scale because I don't have the discernment or breadth of experience to slice that thinly.  I've confessed my bias, and I respect Mr. Cirba's judgment, and obviously Mr. Blain knows Seven Oaks as well as anyone and far better than I do.    Though I do think there may be a tendency here more generally to give an RTJ course short shrift, sight unseen, compared to the Emmet, Ross and Travis courses in the area.  Do you agree?

[Tim Martin]

Wait, how did Leatherstocking get in this thread?

Ron, I introduced Leatherstocking as comparison to Seven Oaks only because it is the only proximate course in the Confidential Guide that I've played.  Teugega is also given a 6 in the book, and Yahnundasis a 5, but I haven't played them (yet).  I'm not so keen on the Doak scale because I don't have the discernment or breadth of experience to slice that thinly.  I've confessed my bias, and I respect Mr. Cirba's judgment, and obviously Mr. Blain knows Seven Oaks as well as anyone and far better than I do.    Though I do think there is may be a tendency here more generally to give an RTJ course short shrift, sight unseen, compared to the Emmet, Ross and Travis courses in the area.  Do you agree?

I don’t know what the demarcation point is for Central New York but there are a number of candidates with good greens which haven’t been mentioned. CC of Troy, Glens Falls CC and Schuyler Meadows are all in the mix. I like Yahnundasis more than Teugega and Leatherstocking if I had to play one every day.

[Bernie Bell]

Tim, I was mainly thinking about the Doak scale slices - "in the vicinity/in town" (5/6) and "within 100 miles" (7) relative to Seven Oaks. 

[David Bowen]

Ron:  Another RTJ course, at least in CNY, is the 1970 Radisson Greens in Baldwinsville northwest of Syracuse.  Never played it, you?  Anyone?  A guy I played with some 20 years ago who was from the area played there frequently and loved it. Reviews on line are varied. Aerial shows large greens, large bunkers, some approach shots over water.  Sounds like a familiar tune.

[Ronald Montesano]

1. Tim, I would not call Glen Falls central new york.


2. David, I have not played Radisson Greens. I should get over there.


3. Tim, I love you. Hilariously, I would have Yahnundasis third on a list, with Leatherstocking BARELY edging Teugega out for 1st. Yahnny has those weak holes (due to the truncation after roadways intruded on the course) that, well, weaken it.


4. Bernie, I agree. I also hate RTJ, but I've been battling for years to overcome this bias. I have a list of 8 RTJ courses that folks would not automatically say "This is an RTJ course." Some are from his pre-Monster era, while others came later, before Roger Rulewich took over all design duties. My list is: Green Lakes, Crag Burn, Golden Horseshoe Gold, Durand Eastman (also chopped up by Robert F*ing Moses), Cornell U., Seven Oaks, James Baird, Black Hall.


5. The earliest of his courses that looks like a Monster course, in my estimation, is Dunes G&CC in Myrtle Beach.


6. RE#4...Rulewich essentially did all work from 1990 (if not before) on. The entire RTJ Golf Trail is Rulewich. I like a lot of what I saw, when I played a number of courses there in 2018.


7. Nice resource here: https://www.roberttrentjonessociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/RTJ_Course_List-1.pdf

[Joe_Tucholski]

My experience with RTJ is probably a bit different than many.  This thread hasn't mentioned the RTJ trail in AL.  The importance of the courses to the state is massive.  I currently live in AL I'll be honest I don't love the trail courses I play most often in Montgomery.  It seems the majority of the courses have water in play on at least one side (counting in my head there is water on 14 of the holes on the Judge, and lost ball is lurking on every hole).  Basically it's hit the fairway or death, and they aren't always easy fairways to hit.  With difficulty off the tee you would think the greens would be straight forward, but they aren't.  I three putt more than 3 holes a round due to large ridges and multiple tiers.  Yesterday I played in Greenville and the 9th hole there on the Canyon course has a very severe green with 5 distinct tiers (the Greenville location has my favorite 9 on the trails).


The second piece about RTJ that is pertinent to me and hasn't been mentioned is his involvement with the US military.  I would guess the most common architect on military courses is unattributed/soldier.  RTJ has to be the second most common architect of military golf courses.  I don't know how this arrangement came to be.  Personally without the golf courses at USAFA I would have had a very different experience.  RTJ is definitely responsible for some of the best courses on military bases.

[Tim Martin]

1. Tim, I would not call Glen Falls central new york.


2. David, I have not played Radisson Greens. I should get over there.


3. Tim, I love you. Hilariously, I would have Yahnundasis third on a list, with Leatherstocking BARELY edging Teugega out for 1st. Yahnny has those weak holes (due to the truncation after roadways intruded on the course) that, well, weaken it.


4. Bernie, I agree. I also hate RTJ, but I've been battling for years to overcome this bias. I have a list of 8 RTJ courses that folks would not automatically say "This is an RTJ course." Some are from his pre-Monster era, while others came later, before Roger Rulewich took over all design duties. My list is: Green Lakes, Crag Burn, Golden Horseshoe Gold, Durand Eastman (also chopped up by Robert F*ing Moses), Cornell U., Seven Oaks, James Baird, Black Hall.


5. The earliest of his courses that looks like a Monster course, in my estimation, is Dunes G&CC in Myrtle Beach.


6. RE#4...Rulewich essentially did all work from 1990 (if not before) on. The entire RTJ Golf Trail is Rulewich. I like a lot of what I saw, when I played a number of courses there in 2018.


7. Nice resource here: https://www.roberttrentjonessociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/RTJ_Course_List-1.pdf

RoMo-I love the contoured greens at Yahnundasis and the spots that Travis found for them on a rollicking piece of land. The 11th Biarritz would be an example of same.

[Ronald Montesano]

Joe, you've not experienced RTJ in the slightest. Every course on the trail was built, start to finish, by Roger Rulewich. Trent's name sold, but Rulewich did the work.

[Bill Brightly]

Tom Doak asked if there was an earlier course at Tuxedo before RTJ built what is there now. I believe there was an old course "in the park" while the current course is just outside the gates. Tuxedo Park is a VERY cool place with many spectacular old homes that line a beautiful large lake. When I head back north, I'll ask some buddies about the original course.