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Ronald Montesano

  • Total Karma: -14
Part One: As told by Jimmy Demaret, and related by Dan Jenkins in The dogged victims of inexorable fate,

     To Robert Trent Jones, the golf architect with a reputation for building monster courses: "Saw a course you'd really like, Trent. On
         the first tee you drop the ball over your left shoulder."

Were all of Trent's contributions monster courses?

Part Two: Which courses were not monster courses, and what made them less than that (and presumably, of more value to the treehouse?)


Part Three: Which courses truly were monster courses, and what, if anything, was required to assist them away from this stature?
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Ronald Montesano

  • Total Karma: -14
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2020, 08:04:42 AM »
I could harmonize with myself (and my other self) on the following RTJSR courses: Golden Horseshoe (VA), Crag Burn, Glen Oak and Green Lakes (NY). There may be more, but if interest arises in this thread, I'll chime in from time to time with an off-key (but never off-color) contribution.
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Stewart Abramson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2020, 10:08:28 AM »
I played Casperkill, a 1944 RTJ Sr course in Poughkeepsie, NY on Thursday and didn't find it to be a monster design. The difficulty here are two or three steep uphill walks. For the most part, the course is pretty forgiving. The playing corridors are pretty wide on almost all of the holes and it is pretty hard to lose balls here even though they didn't cut the fairways very wide. The rough was not deep. I don't recall either my playing partner or I spending even a minute looking for a ball. There is not a lot of water. There's a burn that crosses the fairway on #1 and #11 and fronts the green on #7. On #1 I suppose it could come into play for the very long hitters off the tee or on a second shot after a bad drive. On #11 it only affects short hitters playing form the back two tees. It is a real challenge on the approach to seventh green and there were dozens of balls in the burn. There is also water lurking for bad shots on three of the par 3's.  Number 9 is probably the most monstrous hole on the course. It's a 90* dogleg left and one of the tightest holes on the course. A tee shot to the dogleg leaves a long approach up a very steep hill to the green. A long draw off the tee is a good play but you'll be in the woods if you overcook it. We had the second tee time of the day and the single in front of us skipped #9 and went straight to the 10th fairway, I guess to avoid the walk up the hill and the tight downhill tee shot through a chute on #10. The course has a lot of elevation changes. Six downhill tee shots, five uphill approaches. Also, three doglegs to the right and two to the left. Overall a nice variety. I'd conclude this is category 2... Not a monster. We walked the course in 2 hrs 45 minutes. It was my only time out of the house in a week and very easy to maintain distance from others. It was the best $35 I spent in awhile.   
https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157714023555122 Link to pix



Caperkill #1  877




Caperkill #2  883




Caperkill #3 885




Casperkill #5  893




Casperkill #6  895




Casperkill #7  900




Casperkill #8  902






Casperkill #9 a 904
from front tee zoomed



Casperkill #9  906
steep uphill approach



Casperkill #10 a 907




Casperkill #10 c 909
sidehill uphill approach



Casperkill #11 910




Casperkill #11  912




Casperkill #12 915






Casperkill #13 a 916




Casperkill #13 c 918




Casperkill #14 a 920




Casperkill #14 d 923




Casperkill #17 c 929




Casperkill #18 d 933ed



edited to ad link
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 10:33:01 AM by Stewart Abramson »

Ronald Montesano

  • Total Karma: -14
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2020, 10:56:40 AM »
They have a neat video on this page at Casperkill: http://www.casperkillgolf.com/course/

I have to laugh. When the pro describes the 11th hole tee shot, he says very great design by Trent Jones here. The fairway is banked; when you hit it, no roll. You have to carry it 250 to hit the top and bounce forward. (paraphrase)

Nothing like that old saw, long-hitter's advantage.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 11:46:56 AM by Ronald Montesano »
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2020, 11:24:02 AM »
In the early 70's RTJ designed a course outside DC called the Golden Triangle. It was only nine holes and from the back tees only about 3400 yards. It was short but very tight and required certain shaped shots on off the tee on a a few holes. It was fun. The Triangle went belly up but became Walden GC when another nine holes was added by Lindsay Ervin. He also redesigned one and nine to make room for a new clubhouse.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Blain

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2020, 12:31:06 PM »

Ron-
You might as well the following courses in upstate NY:


-Midvale Golf & CC, Rochester  (his first design)
-Seven Oaks, Hamilton
-RTJ GC @ Cornell Univ
-Albany CC



Whenever I think of RTJ, Sr. I always think of Tom Doak's quote about him:  "It's the Howard Johnson school of architecture." Long tees, huge greens, fairway bunkers at the doglegs...that is certainly true of Albany CC and also Seven Oaks although Seven Oaks doesn't have any fairway bunkers. The original RTJ plan for Seven Oaks had 22 fairway bunkers but the school wanted to cut costs and decided they weren't necessary :(
My feeling on RTJ, Sr. courses as a whole is that - for the most part - they provide a solid test of golf but generally speaking aren't the most interesting architecturally. I believe Seven Oaks fits in that category. Of course, there are exceptions; Crag Burn being one and Point O'Woods being another. I am sure there are more.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2020, 03:40:10 PM »
My experience with RTJ courses is limited:


1. Tamiment (NLE)  in the Poconos.. I had a summer job at the resort in the 1960s. The course was highly rated then and was noted for a par5 that was about 600y from the tips.
2. The RTJ Course at Palmetto Dunes in Hilton Head
3. Metedeconk in NJ
4. Oglebay in West Virginia
5. Golden Horseshoe in Williamsburg, VA
6. Wigwam Gold in Litchfield Park, AZ is probably the most difficult of this group.
7. Wigwam Blue   
8. Port Royal in Bermuda

All I can remember about these courses is RTJ's Comment- " Hard Par, Easy Bogey" I don't think any were pushovers or extremely difficult.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 12:43:20 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Pete Lavallee

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2020, 05:58:17 PM »
The Blue Course at the Wigwam in Az. is a pm RTJ Sr. Design opened in 1965. When I found out after playing it the is was indeed an RTJ Sr. course I was blown away! The other RTJ Sr. courses I’ve played are:


Valencia
SGCA Members
Wigwam Gold
Pauma Valley
Spyglass Hill


All pretty much cut from the same cloth, employing the strategy runway tees, large greens, 7,000 yards and looming water on many holes. But the Wigwam Blue is very different. Small turtle shell greens, on a 6,000 yard course. It really is a perfect resort course and shows RTJ Sr. could build something more traditional and do a good job of it. His 18 hole executive course here in SD Tecelote Canyon is also designed closer to Golden Age values.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jason Thurman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2020, 06:42:09 PM »
Otter Creek is probably the only RTJ I’ve played. It’s not a monster. It’s a ton of fun. Challenging, but playable for anyone. Beautiful rolling property with handsome large scale bunkers and those very geometrical but creatively shaped greens. I think I remember the green on 8 West being a tiny peanut benched into a hillside with a narrow entry flanked by bunkers. I need to get back there soon. It’s a course that’s worth getting to know.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tim Gavrich

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2020, 11:01:28 AM »
I never played it but always had the impression that the NLE Waterway Hills in Myrtle Beach was pretty friendly, as RTJ courses go.


Windsor here in Vero Beach is not too monstrous.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2020, 11:09:30 AM »
My experience with RTJ courses is limited:


1. Tamiment (NLE)  in the Poconos.. I had a summer job at the resort in the 1960s. The course was highly rated then and was noted for a par5 that was about 600y from the tips.
2. The RTJ Course at Palmetto Dunes in Hilton Head
3. Metedeconk in NJ
4. Oglebay in West Virginia
5. Golden Horseshoe in Williamsburg, VA
6. Wigwam Gold in Litchfield Park, AZ is probably the most difficult of this group.   


All I can remember about these courses is RTJ's Comment- " Hard Par, Easy Bogey" I don't think any were pushovers or extremely difficult.


Not sure I would put Metedeconk in this grouping. I find it tough as nails.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2020, 12:09:53 PM »
 My experience at Metedeconk was in the late '80s and my memory fails me. I took the course tour on their website and I do remember  the 3rd hole https://www.metedeconk.org/club/scripts/custom/custom.asp?NS=GC&PAGECFG=COURSETOUR. From the looks of others on the video tour, this course should be among RTJ's most difficult.


https://www.metedeconk.org/Files/Library/2015HoleDescriptionforWebsite.pdf
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 12:13:29 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2020, 12:22:44 PM »
Green Lakes State Park is a very cool golf course that made great use of challenging landforms and like most of his best courses was one of his first.   I played it back when I was about 16 years old but stopped by to have a nostalgic look two summers ago and I could no longer see the course for the trees.   What could they have possibly been thinking?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

JLahrman

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2020, 12:26:05 PM »
Otter Creek is probably the only RTJ I’ve played. It’s not a monster. It’s a ton of fun. Challenging, but playable for anyone. Beautiful rolling property with handsome large scale bunkers and those very geometrical but creatively shaped greens. I think I remember the green on 8 West being a tiny peanut benched into a hillside with a narrow entry flanked by bunkers. I need to get back there soon. It’s a course that’s worth getting to know.



Jason, which of the nines are his? I've only played there once, remembered liking it quite a bit. But I'm 99% sure I played the two older nines, not the newer nine (I believe it started as 18 holes but then went to 27)...

Bill Brightly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2020, 12:28:42 PM »
My favorite RTJ course is Tuxedo, Tuxedo Park, NY. Great "mountain course" feel including beautiful use of a natural creek and very cool rock outcroppings as backdrops. I'd say he fit the holes with the land quite well, did not move a lot of dirt, and if the average GCA poster was plopped down on this course, they'd never guess RTJ was the designer.

Brad Tufts

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2020, 12:33:36 PM »
I like how many of the older RTJ courses can totally be viewed as "golden age classics" now.  His rota of Upstate NY courses would probably be more fun to play as a group than his later-career, high-dollar bigger projects.


Cornell, Seven Oaks, and Green Lakes are all enjoyable if not world-beaters.  I've always been intrigued by Bristol Harbour, but I've never played it.



I'm waiting for there to be an actual RTJ restoration movement, but it's his older projects like the above that I'd like to see restored to their 30s utilitarian style.  I played the updated Mauna Kea a couple years ago, and the steep-and-deepening of a 60s layout is not what I'm talking about. 
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Jason Thurman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2020, 12:44:09 PM »
Otter Creek is probably the only RTJ I’ve played. It’s not a monster. It’s a ton of fun. Challenging, but playable for anyone. Beautiful rolling property with handsome large scale bunkers and those very geometrical but creatively shaped greens. I think I remember the green on 8 West being a tiny peanut benched into a hillside with a narrow entry flanked by bunkers. I need to get back there soon. It’s a course that’s worth getting to know.



Jason, which of the nines are his? I've only played there once, remembered liking it quite a bit. But I'm 99% sure I played the two older nines, not the newer nine (I believe it started as 18 holes but then went to 27)...


Joel, you're right about it starting as 18 and eventually becoming 27. The East 9 is the new 9, and was designed by Jr if I remember correctly. I thought it sucked.


The original RTJ Sr 18, though, is a blast. That's the West and North 9s.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

JLahrman

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2020, 01:21:05 PM »
Otter Creek is probably the only RTJ I’ve played. It’s not a monster. It’s a ton of fun. Challenging, but playable for anyone. Beautiful rolling property with handsome large scale bunkers and those very geometrical but creatively shaped greens. I think I remember the green on 8 West being a tiny peanut benched into a hillside with a narrow entry flanked by bunkers. I need to get back there soon. It’s a course that’s worth getting to know.



Jason, which of the nines are his? I've only played there once, remembered liking it quite a bit. But I'm 99% sure I played the two older nines, not the newer nine (I believe it started as 18 holes but then went to 27)...


Joel, you're right about it starting as 18 and eventually becoming 27. The East 9 is the new 9, and was designed by Jr if I remember correctly. I thought it sucked.


The original RTJ Sr 18, though, is a blast. That's the West and North 9s.



Yes I played it shortly before graduating from business school at Indiana University. Cummins does a lot of recruiting from IU, and I remember thinking that this course might actually make it stomachable to live in Columbus!

Ian Andrew

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2020, 01:36:00 PM »
There's more to him than meets the eye ... timing is everything when looking at his career.
The early work is pretty interesting. This is every bit as good as the Golden Age work this site loves.

I have some cool images of Midvale too, but that will have to wait

Green Lakes - 16th - 1938



Durrand Eastman - 4th - 1938
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 01:41:16 PM by Ian Andrew »
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

SL_Solow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2020, 02:27:05 PM »
I am in the Metedeconk is a brute group.  I also note that although Point O Woods gets pretty good reviews, I would rather play its nearby neighbors, The Dunes Club and Lost Dunes both based on design and the fact that the Point is often maintained as too soft.  But for me the question is what made RTJ change?  Clearly this group prefers the older style but that is not the point of my question. The question is, what motivated the change?  Did he believe that the new style made for better golf courses?  Was it a marketing move to differentiate him from his peers?  Strictly commercial? A combination of several factors?  I have read the biographies so I have some ideas but I am interested whether anyone has any insight.  His importance to the development of GCA is difficult to overstate and had he not chosen the direction he took, who knows what might have ensued?

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 12
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2020, 07:08:57 PM »
My favorite RTJ course is Tuxedo, Tuxedo Park, NY. Great "mountain course" feel including beautiful use of a natural creek and very cool rock outcroppings as backdrops. I'd say he fit the holes with the land quite well, did not move a lot of dirt, and if the average GCA poster was plopped down on this course, they'd never guess RTJ was the designer.


Wasn't there a Tuxedo course well before RTJ?  Or did he move it to a new site?

mark chalfant

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2020, 09:15:33 PM »
Tom,


The current RTJ Tuxedo is 60 or 70 years old. There was a Tuxedo G.C. dating way back to circa 1900. If not on the same site it was probably within a few miles.


Bill gives a very accurate view of the charming "new Tuxedo" layout by RTJ senior. It sits softly on the site with a scenic integration of a winding brook.




Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 12
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2020, 09:57:33 PM »
Mark:


Thanks for the clarification.  It's not far from where I grew up, but there were pretty much no references to Tuxedo back then.




Ian:


Thanks for those pictures.  It's clear that his early work had a lot of Stanley Thompson influence, as one would expect.




JP Blain:


The "Howard Johnson" quote is one I borrowed from Herbert Warren Wind . . . I cannot remember if he put that in print somewhere, or whether it was just something he said when I had lunch with him in NYC in 1982. 


Mr. Wind's long article in The New Yorker had helped to boost RTJ's fame and fortune, but he seemed to feel that Mr. Jones had capitalized on that from a business sense and sacrificed something design-wise.  Howard Johnson hotels were not there to sell interesting design, but there was a lot of money made in franchising the name.




I really have not sought out that many RTJ courses, because of that bias about his business model.  It's certainly likely I have missed some good ones -- but hard to tell which those might have been, out of the hundreds of courses he worked on.  [Hint:  it's not some of the famous ones.]  That's the other thing about the Howard Johnson model . . . you have to pretend that they are all equally good!

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 12
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2020, 10:08:07 PM »


I've always been intrigued by Bristol Harbour, but I've never played it.



This name was unfamiliar to me, so I scouted it on Google Earth.  Nine holes in the open on top of a big hill overlooking the lake, and nine holes through the trees, with about 200 feet of elevation change all in.  Bring hiking shoes!

David Bowen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: A 3-part harmony: The severity of RTJ Senior's golf courses
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2020, 10:23:06 AM »
My playing experience of his "monsters" is limited to Crag Burn, particularly the exposed back 9 when the wind is up, and Wilmington CC (South), a 1960 design.  The latter has the hallmark large greens with distinct segments or quadrants, big bunkers, and some approaches over water.  It lies on beautiful, rolling land next to the Wintertur Estate in Delaware hunt country.  Playing conditions are excellent and the fast greens dictate that approaches land in the same section of the green as the pin, otherwise 3-putts are instantly on the table.  Have not been back since a Keith Foster renovation.


Seven Oaks at Colgate Univ could be a "monster" from the back tees on a windy day.  All of its green complexes are elevated, calling for more club, tend to be large and segmented, and are surrounded by large bunkers.  As previously noted, the lack of fairway bunkering makes it rather dull, strategically, but it is in a very nice setting and attractively priced.  A college student bound for a career other than the PGA Tour could hardly ask for more.


Midvale is on interesting ground with some significantly elevated tees and greens.  It feels more like a Ross course than what one thinks of when hearing RTJ's name.  It ends both 9's with par-3s.  It has some tight areas that require sound course management, I can't help thinking it could be far more interesting with better mowing patterns and the obligatory tree removal, but such is life in a competitive golf market.


Bristol Harbour is an outlying upscale public option in the saturated public golf market around Rochester. It is on a hill overlooking the south end of one of the Finger Lakes and has, as Tom mentions, distinct 9s, on in the woods and the other wide open.  It opened around '72 and was reputedly designed by Rees while working under his father's name.  It has the airstrip tee boxes and large fairway bunkers that look obviously built rather than found.  On a handful of holes, an angle of advantage can be gained with placement of the tee shot, but more often the call is avoid bunkers and the woods.  It is not a long course (6700 from the tips) and 3 of the par 5's can be reached in 2 which makes the course more sporty than monster.  What separates BH apart are its greens.  They have great variety and much more interesting internal counters than most public courses and the typical quadrants of an RTJ course.  They offer 4 hours of fun and consternation. Though typically in good conditions, if they were allowed to run at private club speeds, they would be a blast, though for most, unplayable.  As Tom mentions, there is some elevation, primarily coming at the signature 14th hole which doglegs left at the landing zone then plunges 150 feet or so to the green.  The climb back up comes more gradually at 16 and 17. The best hole may be the par 3 15th played over a gorge to a bunkerless green site.  The course remains largely intact from its original construction, though current owners removed a pond on the left of the par 3 2nd and moved the bunkering to the outside of the dogleg on the 14th to better protect encroaching residences.  Many years ago a pond was introduced left of the par-5 4th, replacing bunkers.  It is a good, but manageable walk, but "hiking" would be better reserved for the Sugarbush VT course of RTJ where I have actually seen players wearing hiking boots, and Green Lakes outside Syracuse. The views of the surrounding hills and lake could move the musically-inclined sing, but with those greens, not all in the group will be harmonizing.