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Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 1
Courses that have not been altered.
« on: April 25, 2020, 11:31:59 AM »
What courses have benefited the most from staying with the original design and have not been altered? From those I have played I offer the following:
Myopia Hunt Club?
Crystal Downs?
Alwoodley?
Holston Hills?

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

SL_Solow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2020, 01:12:50 PM »
I don't believe there have been any significant changes to Lawsonia which remains a wonderful place to play and learn.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2020, 02:40:04 PM »
Tom D has mentioned here pros like Ben Crenshaw and Ian Baker Finch playing Crystal Downs, and IIRC neither shot the lights out, or broke par, or even came all that close to breaking par. [I didn't either....]. And that's with modern equipment on a course that (I don't believe) has been lengthened one inch since it was first built. How it must've played for the average member using 1930s equipment really does show, it seems to me, how much our experience of (and expectations for) the game have changed over the years.
P

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2020, 02:54:43 PM »
Good point Peter.
I’ve found that playing hickories has highlighted aspects of golden age architecture and construction that I probably wouldn’t otherwise have considered. I’ve also tried earlier era original longnose clubs and, jeez, using these I don’t know how the game ever kept going, especially given the terrain, ball, clothes etc that folks used way back in those earlier days.
In a similar manner, it would be interesting to hear the thoughts of those who construct or maintain courses who have tried or experienced using the kind of construction or maintenance equipment used a century or so ago.
Atb
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 02:58:33 PM by Thomas Dai »

Mark Pearce

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2020, 01:07:13 AM »
There have certainly been changes at Alwoodley.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jon Wiggett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2020, 03:46:25 AM »

Mark,


I was thinking that. There have been several major alterations including the current 11th which is an entirely new hole. The fabulous 15th which has had its green defaced. Finally, the course is over manicured these days and has lost much of the charm and playing characteristics it once had.


Cavendish perhaps?

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2020, 05:00:57 AM »
I think it’s always best to start with the routing and green-sites in these discussions.


If the routing is intact, that’s half the battle. It’s very rare for any old classic to have not had its bunker scheme and some of its green designs changed throughout the years, at least in GB&I.




Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 12
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2020, 07:52:46 AM »
Places like Roaring Gap and Bald Peak are pretty well preserved, for the same reason as Crystal Downs.  They are all summer clubs with a short golf season, and the members don't want to give up and part of that season to mess around with the course.

Tim Martin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2020, 09:08:01 AM »
Teugega CC is reputed to be one of the better preserved Ross courses. It is fun to play.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 09:10:59 AM by Tim Martin »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2020, 09:42:23 AM »
An untouched course is a rare thing. In this day and age untouched courses designed before WW2 are few and far between. Courses, like Philly Cricket, are returning to their roots. The age of RTJ and Dick wilson has been over for thirty years. Our tastes have changed in the last twenty years which makes me wonder what golf design will look like twenty years from now.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 12
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2020, 09:44:03 AM »
There was quite a bit of change and course evolution at Myopia Hunt between 1894 and World War I.


Not so much since.


If we are focusing primarily on intact original routing and "bones", Oakmont springs to mind.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2020, 10:38:23 AM »
There was quite a bit of change and course evolution at Myopia Hunt between 1894 and World War I.


Not so much since.



Cornish also did some work but I don't know how much.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2020, 10:50:04 AM »
Prestbury has only one new hole since foundation in 2020.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2020, 11:26:28 AM »
Prestbury has only one new hole since foundation in 2020.


Mark, I really liked Prestbury when we played it and remember most of the holes. The hole that was redesigned was it the short par four near the clubhouse?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Duncan Cheslett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2020, 11:33:17 AM »
Cavendish perhaps?


No changes to the routing have taken place at Cavendish whatsoever. The greens are largely completely original (the ninth was rebuilt) and the only real changes are fewer fairway bunkers and more trees.


It is hoped that these can be rectified for our centenery in 2025.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2020, 11:38:04 AM »
Cavendish perhaps?


No changes to the routing have taken place at Cavendish whatsoever. The greens are largely completely original (the ninth was rebuilt) and the only real changes are fewer fairway bunkers and more trees.


It is hoped that these can be rectified for our centenery in 2025.


When I played it felt as though no one had touched it. Has 18 been changed at all since it was first built?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 12
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2020, 12:25:27 PM »

Cornish also did some work but I don't know how much.

Tommy,

That's true, as did Gil Hanse in recent decades, but most of those changes are cosmetic in nature (i.e. widening fairways, expanding greens, reintroducing lost bunkers).   They've recently embarked (no pun intended) on a tree management program, opening up vistas on the internal portions of the course that's rather splendid.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Duncan Cheslett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2020, 01:00:40 PM »

When I played it felt as though no one had touched it. Has 18 been changed at all since it was first built?


Nope.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2020, 01:05:53 PM »

When I played it felt as though no one had touched it. Has 18 been changed at all since it was first built?


Nope.


It was a pretty long and tough hole back in the day.

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

SL_Solow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2020, 02:12:55 PM »
Mike,  If you were looking for a bad pun, intended or not, I think disembarked might have been better.  I must say that I am really enjoying this thread because it has remained focused on Golf Course Architecture.  I particularly would like further thoughts on Tom's attempt at some cause and effect analysis.  Lawsonia also enjoys a short season.  I believe it as owned by a religious organization which had little interest in investing funds to "improve" the course (or so I was told).   Perhaps this explains the long term preservation

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 12
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2020, 02:23:44 PM »
Mike,  If you were looking for a bad pun, intended or not, I think disembarked might have been better. 
Touche'.    ;D
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 12
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2020, 02:41:49 PM »
Mike,  If you were looking for a bad pun, intended or not, I think disembarked might have been better.  I must say that I am really enjoying this thread because it has remained focused on Golf Course Architecture.  I particularly would like further thoughts on Tom's attempt at some cause and effect analysis.  Lawsonia also enjoys a short season.  I believe it as owned by a religious organization which had little interest in investing funds to "improve" the course (or so I was told).   Perhaps this explains the long term preservation


Shel:


In the end, most courses are "touched" because of members' egos and the money to carry them out.  Holston Hills, mentioned earlier, was spared from this because it wound up being on the wrong side of town, so the members did not spend any money on messing it up.  When we restored some of the bunkers there years ago, the work consisted of cutting sod, installing drainage and sand.  The faces did not have to be touched because they had never been altered.


Summer clubs are generally run on a low budget; the same people who might be on the green committee at their home club in the big city just want to relax and enjoy themselves.  Most of the evolution at Crystal Downs was of the "grown over" type instead of the "dug up" variety, which is way easier to fix.


If Patrick Mucci were here, he would be telling us how a benevolent dictator is the best way to preserve a course, but that only works when the dictator has no ego.  Pete Dye, himself, was the one who kept digging up Crooked Stick and making changes:  he left it mostly alone until 1985, but after that, he couldn't help himself.


Soon Mark Fine and Jeff Brauer will be here to tell us how Nature is dynamic and all golf courses are constantly changing on their own and we need an architect to watch over them.  Sure.  But, by far the biggest changes are self-inflicted, and hiring an architect is one possible way to get there.  ;)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2020, 02:59:42 PM »
I'm think that a course's *beginnings*, the main reason it came to be and the type of people who brought it to life, might have something to do with it. Before and after I played CD, my host took me on a tour of the surrounding areas, the cottages and facilities build by the Congregationalists to give their big-city-based staff (and more importantly) the young people in their charge time out in the country and by the water during the summer months. That social, even communal, function and 'organization' may have shaped how the golf course there was seen and what function it served (and easily precluded any desire for it to be 'highly ranked').   

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2020, 03:05:31 PM »
..... by far the biggest changes are self-inflicted,
+1
:) :)
Atb

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 12
Re: Courses that have not been altered.
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2020, 03:28:00 PM »
Actually, some of the best preserved (at least in terms of not having been altered) golden age golf courses in the United States are from the municipal system.   For the most part, no one had the money to futz with them and minimal monies were available to maintain them.

At Cobb's Creek, for instance, Joe Bausch and I have been saying that they are probably the best preserved William Flynn-built greens in the country, as except for a few that washed away during flooding, 14 of them are still "as built" today.   If not for the US Army coming in the 1950s to build an Air Defense Base on about 15% of the property (that affected a re-routing of 6 holes still utilizing the original greens)  I have little doubt that course would have remained largely unchanged since it opened in 1916.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/