Alister MacKenzie Society - updated website

[Thomas Dai]

Just to let folks know that the Alister MacKenzie Society have recently updated their website. Very nice too, some very fine backing photos etc and a link to the MacKenzie Timeline.
See the Societies website at - https://alistermackenzie.co.uk/
The Society also now have a Twitter account - @MackenzieGolfUK
atb

[Mark Pearce]

Thanks.


I had a quick look at the member clubs and found South Moor, which I don't know and is not far from home.  A quick look at their website (and the course flyover) suggests that the good Dr would be appalled at what they've done to it.  Overgrown with trees and with wavy mowing lines like some nightmare-ish 1960s creation.  Still looks worth a visit, though.....

[Duncan Cheslett]

Mark,


South Moor is on my radar as it one of MacKenzie’s later English designs, and an example of the more humble clubs and munis which made up most of his clients before he upped sticks for more exotic climes.


Colt seems to have nabbed the plum gigs at that time, leaving Dr Mac and Braid to work their magic on the scraps.


Cavendish and Gleneagles are obviously the exceptions to this.

[Jon Wiggett]

Nice website. Looking through it I was surprised how many of the courses I have played over the years. Admittedly it is a long time since I played Cavendish but I would probably put Alwoodley, Lindrick and Moortown ahead of it. There is very little left of his design at Dewsbury with probably only the 9th and 10th being fully original Mackenzie and the 8th & 13th greens being his designs too. There is the old second green and the old par three 3rd (an absolute gem) which are his and still used in winter.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Nice website. Looking through it I was surprised how many of the courses I have played over the years. Admittedly it is a long time since I played Cavendish but I would probably put Alwoodley, Lindrick and Moortown ahead of it. There is very little left of his design at Dewsbury with probably only the 9th and 10th being fully original Mackenzie and the 8th & 13th greens being his designs too. There is the old second green and the old par three 3rd (an absolute gem) which are his and still used in winter.

You need to get back to Cavendish! It is 99% original MacKenzie and in better shape than ever - the ongoing improvements over the last few years are astounding.


Alwoodley is obviously the pre-eminent Dr Mac course in the UK, but I would put Cavendish at the head of the chasing pack. I've always been a little underwhelmed by Moortown (Gibraltar aside) and I'm not sure how much MacKenzie there ever was at Lindrick.

[Sean_A]

Duncan

I think the Alwoodley gap is not nearly as wide as people lead on.  I have Cavendish and Moortown hot on Alwoodley's heels.  IMO, Alwoodley gets a biased jack up due to it being Dr Mac's 1st course.  I would like to have seen the original Moortown because I suspect it was a better course than now.  Basically, if I have them all as  Doak 6s.  Alwoodley would probably get the push to a 7 if the rough was sorted.  That is a serious bug bear considering how much Dr Mac disapproved of rough. That said, if Cavendish ever gets really serious with tree clearance and inserting fairway bunkering as Dr Mac would have liked, it would be just as good as Alwoodley, if not better. 

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Sean,


I love Alwoodley, as does everyone who visits.


I suspect though, that this is largely to do with the special atmosphere that exudes from the place as soon as you park your car and walk to the business side of the clubhouse.


The course is clearly very special too, but the Alwoodley experience is somehow greater than the sum of the 18 holes on offer.


That intangible bit of magic is a very difficult thing to compete with.




As for Cavendish, we are extremely serious about tree clearance and views across the course are being opened up. A scheme of bunker renewal for our centenary in 2025 is in place but it remains to be seen how the Coronavirus affects such ambitions.


Here's a view you've never seen before. The 10th green from the tee!


10c by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,


you comments is one of the reasons I stated I hadn't played it in a long time. I must make it across next time I am down.


Sean,


I think Alwoodley was possibly the best inland course in the UK at one time but think it has lost some of its shine through some of the recent 'improvements'. There was a lot to be said for allowing courses to be a little frayed around the edges.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I took a stroll around Cavendish last night and was stopped in my tracks by this view from the 10th fairway to my left up the short 13th hole. The removal of a few birch trees has revealed a previously unseen tantalising glimpse of a hole yet to be played.


IMG_3291 (3) by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr


Meanwhile, from exactly the same spot, this is the view of the 12th green and back towards the tee.

Or rather, it isn't!

IMG_3293 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr


Was there ever a better illustration of the desirability of removing extraneous trees from golf courses?

[Thomas Dai]

The Society also have a Twitter account.
If you're a Twitter person it would be worthwhile linking any MacKenzie details you post on Twitter to the Society using - @MackenzieGolfUK - and help spread knowledge of Dr MacK' further.
atb

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I love Alwoodley, as does everyone who visits.

I suspect though, that this is largely to do with the special atmosphere that exudes from the place as soon as you park your car and walk to the business side of the clubhouse.

The course is clearly very special too, but the Alwoodley experience is somehow greater than the sum of the 18 holes on offer.

That intangible bit of magic is a very difficult thing to compete with.

As for Cavendish, we are extremely serious about tree clearance and views across the course are being opened up. A scheme of bunker renewal for our centenary in 2025 is in place but it remains to be seen how the Coronavirus affects such ambitions.

Here's a view you've never seen before. The 10th green from the tee!
10c by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

Duncan

I used to think Cavendish was run of the mill good until I did several matchplays against other courses. It didn't take long to realize that I had under estimated the quality Cavendish. The reverse was true when I compared Alwoodley to other top notch by rep courses. Alwoodley didn't do as well as I might have predicted. Try it sometime.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


but maybe the real genius of Alwoodley is the reason why it does not hold up as well in matchplay. There are many club's with better holes but very few with better courses.

[Sean_A]

Jon

There are probably many ways to evaluate a course. None are necessarily better than another. My take on trying to decide if a course is great is simple. Are there great holes?

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Jon

There are probably many ways to evaluate a course. None are necessarily better than another. My take on trying to decide if a course is great is simple. Are there great holes?

Ciao

To which the answer at Alwoodley is, without a shadow of a doubt, yes, many.

[Sean_A]

Jon

There are probably many ways to evaluate a course. None are necessarily better than another. My take on trying to decide if a course is great is simple. Are there great holes?

Ciao

To which the answer at Alwoodley is, without a shadow of a doubt, yes, many.

For mine it is 1, the 8th.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon

There are probably many ways to evaluate a course. None are necessarily better than another. My take on trying to decide if a course is great is simple. Are there great holes?

Ciao

I hate to criticise but just going for whether there are great holes is too simplistic and requires very less thought. It also misses the point that such a method is judging individual holes whilst a course is the entirety of what is played.


I do not think that Alwoodley has any world beating holes but all the holes are of a high quality (no stinkers). It uses a plot which is not a great shape or of interesting landform brilliantly. The flow is outstanding and the par 3s, 4s & 5s as sets are excellent. It is one of the few courses where the course as a whole is better than the sum of its part even though the parts are of such a high quality.

[Ally Mcintosh]

We’ve had this conversation many times... Mr.Doak and Mr.Brauer seem to veer towards Sean’s method of ranking a course - Are there great holes?


I am more in Jon’s camp. I am in to great albums more than I am in to great songs. I prefer the journey to the quick hit.


Of course you should also strive to create great individual moments within the whole; memorable world class moments. So a well routed course is not enough if the hole architecture / strategy / detail then lets it down.


But it doesn’t at Alwoodley.

[Sean_A]

We’ve had this conversation many times... Mr.Doak and Mr.Brauer seem to veer towards Sean’s method of ranking a course - Are there great holes?


I am more in Jon’s camp. I am in to great albums more than I am in to great songs. I prefer the journey to the quick hit.

Of course you should also strive to create great individual moments within the whole; memorable world class moments. So a well routed course is not enough if the hole architecture / strategy / detail then lets it down.

But it doesn’t at Alwoodley.

But great albums have great songs. That has become more apparent the older I get. I can understand disagreeing about what is a great hole. But I can't understand the idea of great courses being short on great holes.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

We’ve had this conversation many times... Mr.Doak and Mr.Brauer seem to veer towards Sean’s method of ranking a course - Are there great holes?


I am more in Jon’s camp. I am in to great albums more than I am in to great songs. I prefer the journey to the quick hit.

Of course you should also strive to create great individual moments within the whole; memorable world class moments. So a well routed course is not enough if the hole architecture / strategy / detail then lets it down.

But it doesn’t at Alwoodley.

But great albums have great songs. That has become more apparent the older I get. I can understand disagreeing about what is a great hole. But I can't understand the idea of great courses being short on great holes.

Ciao

Great albums most certainly don’t have to have great songs, at least ones that don’t stand apart and call attention to themselves.


I’d argue that some of the most disappointing albums are those with 4 great singles and the rest filler.


In fairness, it’s about imbalance. If the great holes fit seamlessly in to the overall whole, without highlighting weaknesses in the rest of the course and without trying too hard, then that is definitely the ideal.

[Sean_A]

I am not saying any number of great singles necessarily make a great album. But imo great albums necessarily need great songs.

I do agree that great holes don't need to be obviously so. I don't think Alwoodley's 8th is obviously great.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think many great albums are more about the feeling they leave you with. Plus the want to stay engaged from beginning to end.


If the 8th at Alwoodley is “great” (and I don’t necessarily think it is a better hole than quite a few others on the course), then it does indeed do a god job of sitting in seamlessly without calling attention to itself.


One of my issues with trying to search for greatness in individual holes is the temptation to overdesign. The proudest part of the work I’ve done at Strandhill is to restrain myself from making any flashy statements. I saw a “great” hole at the 16th but it needed 6 in your face bunkers. I put in two and said “I like it more this way. More in keeping”...

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon

There are probably many ways to evaluate a course. None are necessarily better than another. My take on trying to decide if a course is great is simple. Are there great holes?

Ciao

For mine it is 1, the 8th.

Ciao