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Mike Bodo

  • Total Karma: 0
To my fellow GCA'ers across the pond; do any of you ponder the golf courses that weren't designed and built in the U.K. during the Golden Age of golf course architecture due to many of its best architects having gone to America to cash in on the gold rush and test themselves and their abilities in the new world? I suppose it's arguable that by 1910 the best parcels of land for golf courses along the coastlines there had already been developed and some inland as well, but has it occurred to you what might have been from a course perspective had some of these legendary architects split their time more evenly between the U.K. and America during this period or predominately focused all or most of their work in the U.K.? As an American, I feel in some ways we deprived the U.K. of having even more famous and outstanding courses than it already has by having lured these architects here when the golf scene was exploding. But I would be curious to hear the thoughts and perspectives on this from those there on the impact it had on course design and development during this period.


Thanks and CHEERS!  ;D
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 10:19:07 AM by Mike Bodo »
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 1
Interesting question - what might have been.
The aspect that I've often pondered though are the changes to or destruction of UK courses caused by WW1 and particularly WW2 and how many numerous courses even didn't open for play again once the conflicts were over.
For example, Fowlers original courses at Saunton or Royal Dornoch's pre-WW2 layout.
Sorry for the slight thread-jack.
atb
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 10:30:16 AM by Thomas Dai »

Mike Bodo

  • Total Karma: 0
I didn't even consider the impact WW1 had on golf courses there in terms of destruction, but excellent point. To add to my original post, I suppose one could say that the absence of Colt, Macdonald, Ross, Tillinghast, Mackenzie, Park and others opened the door for a slew of new and less heralded existing designers in the U.K. to come to the fore and build/expand their portfolios and reputations. This is arguably a good thing, as some excellent work was done during this period. But it's a fun exercise to think of what might have been had the stalwarts in golf course design spent more of their time at home designing courses as opposed to America. Of course, the jingoistic side of me looks at it from the perspective that your loss was our gain and that had fate not worked as it had not only would we have lost out on a lot of monumental and legendary courses, but the golfing world as whole.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 3
It is an interesting question. But let’s be honest, many of the great architects (Colt, Simpson et al) were still primarily UK focused so I’m not sure it would have turned out much differently.


In fact, many of the most famous US courses in the golden age were by US architects and/or were defined by big, bold and expensive developments, the like of which could have been detrimental to the UK golf scene. I’m sure glad the UK didn’t follow the US model, even if the last 20 years seem to be getting closer to it.

Mark Pearce

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Colt did an awful lot of work in the UK between say 1910 and 1930 for a man who was, apparently absent.  And a surprising number of those crappy post 1910 UK golf courses are actually quite playable.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 12
Yes, the premise is a bit flawed.  Mr. Colt did not enjoy overseas travel, so he stayed in the UK and Europe except for one trip to America prior to WW I.  Ross and Park were already gone to America, but Colt's firm so dominated the business there in the Golden Age that MacKenzie and Simpson were more successful finding work outside the UK.  And Alison and Morrison, Colt's partners, took on the work in Europe and Asia that came via Colt's tentacles.


Also, I'm not sure there was the same kind of economic boom in the UK as there was in America.  Having the war fought on your doorstep instead of across an ocean is a much different impact.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Total Karma: 0
If you mean well known UK based architects whose skills and talents were lost to their home country, we are basically talking about MacKenzie, who only survived seven years of exile anyway.


His reason for emigrating to the US, aside from marital complications, was a lack of well paying work at home.


I doubt if the UK missed out much from Dr Mac being absent for the last few years of his life.


Cavendish was both his apex and swansong in England!  🤣
« Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 05:30:47 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: -1
Yes, the premise is a bit flawed.  Mr. Colt did not enjoy overseas travel, so he stayed in the UK and Europe except for one trip to America prior to WW I.  Ross and Park were already gone to America, but Colt's firm so dominated the business there in the Golden Age that MacKenzie and Simpson were more successful finding work outside the UK.  And Alison and Morrison, Colt's partners, took on the work in Europe and Asia that came via Colt's tentacles.


Also, I'm not sure there was the same kind of economic boom in the UK as there was in America.  Having the war fought on your doorstep instead of across an ocean is a much different impact.


The UK was in what we view as a Recession for most of the 1920s. Keynes pleaded with the Bank of England to ease monetary policy but to no avail. The Roaring Twenties is a bit of a misnomer for the US, particularly for farming which still employed a large percentage of the population. But the larger cities where much of the Golden Age courses were built were doing well.


Ira

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 0
It's difficult to know what might have happened.

Park Jr was dead by about 1925 after having spent the post WWI years in the US. Park Jr might have built some good stuff in the UK in these 5 years of his life.

Fowler also spent post WWI time in the US, but like Park Jr, I am not sure how many great opportunities would have come his way during this period.

Alison was working with Colt, so if anything he probably got an opportunity to spread his wings a bit.

Dr Mac is the obvious guy who might have gone on to great things. I always had the impression he was beaten to the punch by Colt in practically every aspect of the business and simply couldn't compete for most of the big design prizes. The Alwoodley project just didn't seem to parlay into many other big jobs. The same might be said for the Country Life prize, but WWI intervened. Still, I suspect one or two really good courses were probably left on the table because of his absence for much of the last eight years of life. Mind you, the recession would have been a huge factor so maybe nothing was left on the table.

Simpson might have been too much out there to seriously compete against Colt. Partnering with Fowler for so many years practically eliminated him having any chance to really shine in the UK.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

James Boon

  • Total Karma: 0
Mike,


We are lucky over here with the courses we already have so I hadn't thought much about it until your question. However rather than what we might have missed from the likes of Dr MacK heading over to the USA, it is perhaps fun to daydream of what alternative history could have been if some of the architects travelled over here to design a few gems? How about a Donald Ross Pinehurst like course in the Surrey sandbelt, or a Stanley Thompson Banff'esque course as a neighbour to Gleneagles, or Seth Raynor doing a Hebridean version of Fishers Island?


An interesting daydream, but I think we did okay anyway. Travel in those days wasnt as easy as it is today (or before the lockdown anyway!) and I understand quite a few people had issues with long distance travel back then. For instance another possible alternative history is what could have been at Royal Dornoch? Before the current layout was developed, Tom Wiliamson the pro at Hollinwell (home of Notts GC) and also a designer of several local courses including much of what we see today at Hollinwell, was asked to visit Dornoch to make changes to the course. However he declined due to the difficulty in travelling there at the time.


Cheers,


James

2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins, Alwoodley

Niall C

  • Total Karma: -1
Mike

There is a lot of if's in your question and as others have said, these guys were mainly UK focused anyway. A couple of obvious exceptions to that are Dr MacKenzie and CH Alison. However if those guys hadn't gone abroad what kind of reputation would they and their courses have now ? I suspect one of the reasons MacKenzie travelled was the competition in the UK which in gca terms was a pretty mature market.

If he hadn't gone to Australia or the US there might not be the sandbelt courses or Cypress Point or where ever that we know now. Not to say those courses wouldn't have been built otherwise but who would have designed them ? Probably relative novices and the chances are they wouldn't have been as good. But Mac did travel and he did get to design these terrific opportunities and that is what has largely made his rep (IMO). Likewise with Alison in Japan.

Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 3
Yes, the premise is a bit flawed.  Mr. Colt did not enjoy overseas travel, so he stayed in the UK and Europe except for one trip to America prior to WW I.


Three trips, to America and Canada. Plus A LOT of time spent in France, Belgium, Spain etc. I haven't come across any hard evidence that he didn't enjoy overseas travel, and even post WW1 he had another trip to the US in planning that never happened. Can't say why, unfortunately.


I am in awe of the miles that Colt covered between 1910 and the outbreak of WW1, and the amount of top quality work he got through.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 1
Wasn’t Colt offered the Royal Melbourne-Australian trip before MacKenzie but Colt turned it down? Now there’s a pretty big ‘what if’.
Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 12
Yes, the premise is a bit flawed.  Mr. Colt did not enjoy overseas travel, so he stayed in the UK and Europe except for one trip to America prior to WW I.


Three trips, to America and Canada. Plus A LOT of time spent in France, Belgium, Spain etc. I haven't come across any hard evidence that he didn't enjoy overseas travel, and even post WW1 he had another trip to the US in planning that never happened. Can't say why, unfortunately.


I am in awe of the miles that Colt covered between 1910 and the outbreak of WW1, and the amount of top quality work he got through.




I wouldn't make such mistakes if you would actually, you know, finish that book you are working on.   ;)

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 3
Yes, the premise is a bit flawed.  Mr. Colt did not enjoy overseas travel, so he stayed in the UK and Europe except for one trip to America prior to WW I.


Three trips, to America and Canada. Plus A LOT of time spent in France, Belgium, Spain etc. I haven't come across any hard evidence that he didn't enjoy overseas travel, and even post WW1 he had another trip to the US in planning that never happened. Can't say why, unfortunately.


I am in awe of the miles that Colt covered between 1910 and the outbreak of WW1, and the amount of top quality work he got through.




I wouldn't make such mistakes if you would actually, you know, finish that book you are working on.   ;)


I know (shamefaced emoji)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mike Bodo

  • Total Karma: 0
We are lucky over here with the courses we already have so I hadn't thought much about it until your question. However rather than what we might have missed from the likes of Dr MacK heading over to the USA, it is perhaps fun to daydream of what alternative history could have been if some of the architects travelled over here to design a few gems? How about a Donald Ross Pinehurst like course in the Surrey sandbelt, or a Stanley Thompson Banff'esque course as a neighbour to Gleneagles, or Seth Raynor doing a Hebridean version of Fishers Island?


An interesting daydream, but I think we did okay anyway. Travel in those days wasnt as easy as it is today (or before the lockdown anyway!) and I understand quite a few people had issues with long distance travel back then. For instance another possible alternative history is what could have been at Royal Dornoch? Before the current layout was developed, Tom Wiliamson the pro at Hollinwell (home of Notts GC) and also a designer of several local courses including much of what we see today at Hollinwell, was asked to visit Dornoch to make changes to the course. However he declined due to the difficulty in travelling there at the time.
Your response is exactly why I posed the question originally. Great retort! Yeah, no shit! Why didn't Ross ever take it upon himself to design one course from scratch in his homeland - if nothing else as a tribute to it? If memory serves me he used to come home semi-frequently during his early days in the U.S., as he still had family there and I believe his fiancee was there for several years while he established himself in the New World. You'd think he could have taken 6 - 8 mo's out of one year to design a course in Scotland that would have been akin to Pinehurst. Problem was he wasn't really rolling heavy in design work until the second decade of the 1900's and wasn't recognized back home as an accomplished designer prior to that where perhaps he had a better chance to do something in Scotland. From like 1913 until shortly before he passed away, he was too busy in America with work. Doing a course in Scotland would have required clearing a year off your calendar and telling a lot of people who wanted him to design courses in the U.S., "no", which I don't think he had the heart to do. Great question and one we'll never know the asnwer to, but can dream about.


You are correct that despite this, a lot of great design work in the U.K. was done during this period which is still present and thriving today.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Mike Bodo

  • Total Karma: 0
Mike

There is a lot of if's in your question and as others have said, these guys were mainly UK focused anyway. A couple of obvious exceptions to that are Dr MacKenzie and CH Alison. However if those guys hadn't gone abroad what kind of reputation would they and their courses have now ? I suspect one of the reasons MacKenzie travelled was the competition in the UK which in gca terms was a pretty mature market.

If he hadn't gone to Australia or the US there might not be the sandbelt courses or Cypress Point or where ever that we know now. Not to say those courses wouldn't have been built otherwise but who would have designed them ? Probably relative novices and the chances are they wouldn't have been as good. But Mac did travel and he did get to design these terrific opportunities and that is what has largely made his rep (IMO). Likewise with Alison in Japan.

Niall
Great points all, Niall! I guess the perspective that I approaching this from was that for every course these guys built in the U.S. and elsewhere internationally was one less course they potentially could have done in the U.K. and put their fingerprints on. We're talking number count, essentially. It's not that these acclaimed architects didn't do any work or quality work at that in their homeland. Au contraire! But what more could they have done is the question. It's an extreme hypothetical, I get that, but one we can debate and have fun with speculating.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Niall C

  • Total Karma: -1
Mike

In the case of MacKenzie at least I don't think he'd have got either the quality of opportunities or indeed the amount of opportunities. MacKenzie designed some terrific courses in the UK but by the 1920's I'm not sure there was the same level of opportunities to be had. As I said in my previous post, it was quite a mature market at that point whereas in the US and Australia it wasn't quite as saturated.

Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 3
I think the issue is demand really. Yes, there were a lot of courses built in the UK and Ireland in the Golden Age. But I don't think that we missed a ton of opportunities due to lack of supply of good architects.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.