Bethpage State Park and the Black

[Neil Regan]

re: Everest and "because it's there"

This was said by George Mallory in 1924, who may or may not have reached the summit of Everest before he died on the mountain.
"There" was an expression used in the 1920s similar in meaning to a later era's use of "where it's at". Another famous quote carrying this meaning was from Gertrude Stein about Oakland, "There is no 'there' there."

[Matt_Ward]

nregan:

Thanks for the correction -- but as a g-o-l-f-e-r first and foremost the issue of what state you live in is a differentiation that matters to some but for me it doesn't. If NJ decides to do something exactly like what NY does a have a problem with it. Yes, I know full well that tax dollars from one jurisdiction is responsible for the facility but clearly the path Bethpage is taking is clearly going int he direction of where fees -- of all types and classifications -- is going to rise.

Just because it's not PB today doesn't mean it won't be heading in that direction -- I'll take bets that triple digit weekend rates will hit BB by the start of the '05 season.

[GeoffreyC]

Matt

Please tell us what concrete information you have that the prices will rise at the Bethpage facility?  Where do you get this from?  We were told that prices for state residents will remaim at reasonable levels where every working class individuals who supported the place for years will still be able to afford to play as much as they always have.

If you want to make that bet, I will bet you that I will not have to pay $100 or more to play Bethpage on a weekend in the 05 season.  Name your amount.  If you are moaning that out of state residents might have to fork over $100 then I say thats too bad and its a reasonable method to acquire revinue for the state and not the scalpers who are already making money.

[ChasLawler]

This may not go over so well, but I say screw the out-of-state golfer...and screw the New York resident as well.

$100 is a very fair amount IMO - for everyone, and I'm sure there are plenty out there who would be happy to pay more. This is the United States, and that's just the way it works - fortunately for some and unfortunately for others.

Why should we care about ordinary Joe who may may been playing the Black for 40 years? What - he paid $40 and slept in his car before the USGA stepped in and resurrected the place? Does that entitle him to something?

And didn't the USGA fund most of the restoration? Should I get a discount since I'm a USGA member and helped pay for the restoration?

[Matt_Ward]

Geoff:

Wake up and smell the coffee my good man.

The State of New York is using the out-of-state fees as their way to support all other efforts within the State Park system. You seem to simply "take their word for it" that the fees will continue to be "reasonable" forever and ever. This is the same nonsense told to the indians about not worrying in moving from reservation to the next.

Geoff -- the weekend fee is now $81. It will be triple digit (if it just happens to be $99.00 I would also win my point) by '05 and yes I'm prepared to wager a free green fee at BB.

Geoff -- what scalpers do is something that won't be prevented. Go to any concert today and you'll see what I mean. I don't want to see BB turn into a de facto PB -- even if the fees RIGHT NOW are reasonable. If you don't keep the issue about prices FRONT AND CENTER AT ALL TIMES the politicians, who would not have known Bethpage Black from Crayola Cranyon Black prior to a few years ago, will simply see an easy opportunity to bump up fees to cover any SHORTFALL that they believe exists.

Geoff -- I cut my teeth on publicly owned facilities and it amazes me how gullible people are when they hear the  two words "promise" and the word "politician" when it deals with fees. The average NY fee will also rise but that won't happen overnight -- I will concede that but if you think that what is being paid is "safe forever" that's not likely.

I said it before I don't justify this rate-war BS that goes on between states. When NJ does it to New Yorkers it's the same BS IMHO. Two wrongs never will make it right.

The issue of fees is just waiting to be exploited. How do you think the Open came back to Bethpage soooooooo fast -- do you think it was simply because of the course? If you think that -- please let me know what glue you've been sniffing good buddy.

[Mike_Sweeney]

The State of New York is using the out-of-state fees as their way to support all other efforts within the State Park system.

Matt,

I love ya, and I have to challenge this statement.

My assumption:

50,000 out of state rounds per year on BB x $81 = $4.05 million

I really don't think BB is doing 50,000 out of state rounds per year , my guess would be 10,000 maximum. I don't think the New York State Park system is supported on a budget of $4.05 million !!

Coffee is brewing here in New York, come on over and smell it   .

[Matt_Ward]

Mike --

Keep it brewing good buddy -- the outside fees you talk about don't cover the entire operation -- I concede that -- but I won't concede this -- THE OUT OF STATE RESIDENT IS EASY PREY and not more than a few months after the '02 Open finished the rate was doubled. What was the hurry?

The outside player is also easy fish to fry because these people don't vote in The Emprie State -- so who gives a rats ass what they think -- even when these same people patronized the place FOR YEARS when conditions were simply horrific. I guess NJ should retaliate and do the same thing to the Staten Island crowd that centures over to Monmouth and Middlesex Counties in NJ? I said before -- I'm a golfer -- first and foremost. Unfortunately, nearly all the state have some sort of resident / nonresident tag and it simply means more price wars will take place.

Mike -- the issue with BB and a good number of other tax owned layouts is the mismanagement that was allowed to take place. The New York politicians ran BB into the ground and I for one would love to see the fees stay "reasonable" for all who play golf. I also know that given the unbelievable amount of $$ that came via the '02 Open it's a big time cash cow for New York State and the USGA. I just want to hold the feet to the fire of all concerned. I cut my teeth on a muni and believe me -- the folks who usually run these operations are the dumping ground for political wannabees who could not land anything more significant like the Port Authority or its equivalent.

Bethpage is now the domain of the guy and gal who live in Nassau and Suffolk -- the schnook who lives in Buffalo probably has to wait a longer time to get his reservation request when compared to the folks locally. Look, I've played 200+ rounds at BB and enjoyed every one of them. But, there are plenty of people here in Jersey who patronized the place for years when the conditions were close to rubble and now are looking from the outside while others who "suddenly" discovered the Black within New York reap the benefits.

If some people think that's fair then they are thinking as a resident first -- not as a golfer IMHO.

[GeoffreyC]

Matt

MY weekend fee will NOT be $100 by 05 and I will wager you what ever you wish on that.  If the out of state fee goes from $81 to $100 I do not particularly care. You were a rare case of an out of state player who regularly used the facility.  Most are infrequent or one time visitors and I'm not terribly interested if they are charged $100.  My concern is with the everyday regular working guy and I have not seen ANY evidence from you or anyone else that those guy's fees will go up.

Matt - the place was always "the domain of the guy and gal who live in Nassau and Suffolk" That makes sense.  The only way they get preference from me in Westchester County or someone in Buffalo is that the switches at the telephone exchange apparently take more time to connect from further away and these few miliseconds make it tough to get through to the reservations system. Fact is that ohter then this 7 day ahead of time in state call in system, YOU from NJ have the same access to canceled tee times or the overnight route. You just pay a bit more.  That is FAIR  Sorry buddy.

Matt- you make it sound like there is an army of out of state Bethpage regulars that are getting screwed.  My friend you must admit that you are an unusual bird   and not the TYPICAL out of state Bethpage customer.

[Robert Thompson]

Geoff and gentlemen: Not wanting to get involved in this debate, but I am curious - is it really THAT hard to get a tee time, say mid-week in May or October, at the Black? I know it is legendary that people sleep overnight, but I always assumed that was for weekend play -- does that happen during the week as well?

Robert

[GeoffreyC]

Robert

You sleep overnight mainly if you want a foresome. There are cancelations and singles can generally get on but the course is fully booked from morning to late afternoon every day.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Yes, I got a twosome very late (only could squeeze in 13 holes) on a midweek day this summer through the tee time system a day or two before which I assume was a cancellation. I really don't try any more as it is easier to get on Winged Foot !! Most nights (any night) you can't get through till an hour after the phones open up, and maybe you get a time after 3:00. If you walk up as a single during the week, you have a chance to get out due to cancellations.

There are lots of conspiracy theories out there on the phone system including Geoffrey's, but it may just be that it is a great course surrounded by lots of people at a cheap rate.

In the old days nobody played The Black as it was too hard to play and too hard to walk.

[GeoffreyC]

Mike

I've heard some conspiracy theories on the phone reservation system too but my theory (told to me by others) involves the physical operation of the routers at the phone company. It's nothing sinister at all but the reality that phone connections are not instantaneous.

You are mostly correct that "In the old days nobody played The Black as it was too hard to play and too hard to walk." The wait (before the phone reservation system) was always 3-4 hours on all the other courses and maybe 1 1/2 hrs on the Black.  When I played it for the first time in 1969 a lightbulb went off in my head (explaining my weird behavior ever since   ) and I slowly began to appreciate golf course architecture. I think Jamie Duffner and Mike Golden are kindred spirits in this regard and we all share a great affection for the The Black course.

[ChasLawler]

The latest conspiracy theory I heard was actually this past weekend. A friend of mine explained to me very rationally that the mafia controlled the phone system for getting on the Black Course. As a result the mafia folks hoard all of the early tee times for themselves. My friend then explained to me that because most of these guys don't play a whole lot of golf, and therefore aren't really very good (not his words), they are the ones who create the chain reaction of slow play every day - leading to the 6 hour rounds.

[Thomas_Brown]

Here's a statistic that Rancho Park promoted recently when trying to get funds from the city.

What % of city park revenues are generated by city golf courses in LA? Answer I think was about 90%

What % of city park revenues are reinvested into the upkeep and renovation of the city golf courses?  Answer I think was less than 20%

Judging the Bethpage I saw the 1980's and 1990's, I'd guess NY is using the same spread the state golfer's wealth edict.

[Matt_Ward]

Robert Thompson:

The fanfare of the '02 Open has now caused the Black to be jammed on a regular basis -- irrespective of the time of year or day -- and that includes weekdays. Yes, you can access the course as a single as they will have some openings but if you think bringing the gang of four is an easy deal you might think again -- especially if you are outside New York.

The old days were a far different matter although clearly the turf issues are now resolved for the better.

Geoff:

You must not have spoken to many people when you played BB over the years. I did regularly -- and there were plenty of folks from Jersey, Connecticut and Pennsy that regularly patronized the place.

Geoff -- my wager was on the out-of-state rate -- you need to read what I post. Clearly, you're interested in your situation as a NEW YORKER -- NOT AS A GOLFER. That's your prerogative -- although I see your interests as simply parochial in nature.

Geoff -- you make it sound like just Matt and his tiny group of guys from Juuuuuuuuuuursee were the only ones who knew about the place who were not from NY. Trust me -- plenty of people ventured to the Black and NOT just for one round.

Geoff -- try to understand this -- the fees doubled for out-of-state players within a few months of the Open concluding. I don't have any p-r-o-o-f that rates will hit triple digits for these folks by '05 but I can see this happening. It's too easy for it NOT to happen.

There is no incentive for NY State to keep rates reasonable for out-of-state players. The attitude I sense is screw-em! And don't be sooooooooooooooooo smug to believe that in-state rates will forever stay below $50 either. You keep repeating like a parrot the "promises" that politicians made regarding the rates -- like I said these are the same promises made to the indians about staying on the reservation. I don't see them doubling but the day below $50 is a small one.

Bill:

You don't get it -- when individual states begin this nonsensical price escalation the golfer from the odd state looking in is s-c-r-e-w-e-d. Sure -- if NY does it then NJ can follow and then Pennsy follows right behind that. Where does it end? I'll often take daily-fee golf over publicly owned golf when systems of the type you see at Bethpage / Torrey are involved.

Mike S:

"In the old days nobody played The Black as it was too hard to play and too hard to walk."

Mike -- where do you get that comment from? Plenty of
g-o-l-f-e-r-s who knew about the Black l-o-n-g ago played it over and over -- it's the new people who suddenly "discovered" the Black that makes me laugh although I'm glad they finally have opened their eyes.

Who cares about the people who patronized the place for years and played off rubble-like conditions -- especially if they happen to be from Jersey or other states besides New York. Is that how you treat customers?

Mike -- I know of plenty of people who routinely walked the Black because they didn't want to be around people who can only play golf through the use of carts. The Black was their refuge away from those who simply "play" golf and are not "golfers."

Gentlmen:

I'd love for Bethpage to set aside even just a few tee spots for out-of-state play. Clearly, the existing reservation system is a windfall for those with local exchanges. Essentially, the Black has become their personal private club. In the old days it didn't matter if you lived on Mars -- if you had the energy / passion to wait it out you could get on the course A-N-D secure reasonable tee times. The current system is clearly advancing local interests and the glory days of the Black will now become less and less so -- with the exception of the lone annual visit that many will only have now.