I am thinking about re-opening the golf course tomorrow

[Thomas Dai]

Just curious but has any UK course has actually re-opened yet?
atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Just curious but has any UK course has actually re-opened yet?
atb

I think not. Everyone is waiting for the lead from England Golf and the other national unions. Rightly so.


They in turn are consulting with the government.


We shall see...

[Mark Chaplin]

Adrian - it comes down to whether a golf course is an outdoor sports pitch, I’d contend it is. If I’m correct golf is legally banned at the moment and rightly so in my opinion. And that’s from someone who has  paid 4 sets of subs plus MCC subs so I’ve spent a considerable sum on activities I cannot take part in.

[Mark Pearce]

Duncan,


from the UK Government website the list of businesses that MUST close include

[font=&amp][size=inherit]Outdoor recreation[/size][/font]

[font=&amp][size=inherit]
Playgrounds, sports courts and pitches, and outdoor gyms or similar




I would assume that golf courses are included in sports courts and pitches.[/size][/font]

You have assumed wrong. The official line is England Golf have closed golf not the government. It is possible England Golf could now be sued for a wipe out.

No, Jon is absolutely right and is quoting the government regulations.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I guess it all depends on how you define a sports pitch. These are a couple of random examples;


https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pitch

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_(sports_field)


I am unable to find any definition online that includes golf courses.


If England Golf’s reasoning for ordering courses to close was because golf courses fell within the definition of sports pitches I am sure they would have said so at the time. They didn’t.


Instead, they offered more intangible justification for their decision - support of the actions of the government, “we’re all in it together” etc.


I’m not suggesting they were wrong to do this - I’m just drilling down into the specific thought process and logic.

[Mark Pearce]

Duncan,


Jon cited the regulation.  The question is whether a golf course is an "outdoor sports court".  It's not clear but, if I was Adrian, I wouldn't want to be the test case.  Adrian thinks the EGU's position clarifies this.  In my view it doesn't.  As I read the EGU's position, it's not intended as an interpretation of the regulation, just as the right thing to do.  There's no doubt that the regulations could be clearer.

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,


clutching at straws my friend. From your second link  A sports pitch is an area of outdoor ground used for playing sport. Golf is a sport and a golf course is an area of outdoor ground.


I guess we will find out when Adrian opens up today 

[Mark Pearce]

Jon,


Possibly.  But Wikipedia is not a noted legal authority!

[Thomas Dai]

The lack of clarity doesn’t imo say much for the credibility of the organisations running golf in the UK. And as well as the EGU there’s also the SGU and the WGU to consider as well plus whoever oversees the golf in NIre.
And it’s us golfers and club members who through add-ons within our subscriptions pay for these organisations. And when you pay you expect competency.
I’m not saying whether courses in the UK should be open or not just that competency and proper clarity is required.
Atb

[Mark Pearce]

The lack of clarity doesn’t imo say much for the credibility of the organisations running golf in the UK. And as well as the EGU there’s also the SGU and the WGU to consider as well plus whoever oversees the golf in NIre.

Hardly fair to blame the governing bodies of the sport for a lack of clarity in legislation, is it?  I think the various GU's positions are pretty clear, aren't they?  Be shut.

[Thomas Dai]

The lack of clarity doesn’t imo say much for the credibility of the organisations running golf in the UK. And as well as the EGU there’s also the SGU and the WGU to consider as well plus whoever oversees the golf in NIre.

Hardly fair to blame the governing bodies of the sport for a lack of clarity in legislation, is it?  I think the various GU's positions are pretty clear, aren't they?  Be shut.

If things were clear this thread wouldn’t exist.
Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

Duncan,


clutching at straws my friend. From your second link  A sports pitch is an area of outdoor ground used for playing sport. Golf is a sport and a golf course is an area of outdoor ground.


I guess we will find out when Adrian opens up today 

We never opened yesterday because we were waiting for the decision from the meeting on Friday evening. EG never made contact, another golf course is now considering suing EG. I am going out to play in a minute and have been playing, our clubhouse manager has, greenstaff after work. We have taken the decision ourself that we are doing no wrong. Does anyone here think there is any wrong in that. Fishing is another sport where you use outdoor ground, certainly ain't no pitch in my book but I accept the whole thing is very wishy washy. You can go running outdoors is that a pitch? it is certainly a sport.


I like the idea of being the test case. Quite happy to be closed down, pay the fine and pack in. The Gov have treated Golf courses very badly and EG has done f* all to help. Most golf courses have business rates so high and crippling that they dont even get the business grant, some golf course have to pay the 20% government VAT ponce so go free.


Sometimes it is situations like this that lets it get all out in front of the government so they can see their errors.

[Sean_A]

I was under the strong impression that the EGU advised closing courses due to the optics.  I never actually read anything which said golf courses must close. Perhaps there is a bit of confusion between the course and the house? 

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

The EGU has no statutory authority to mandate closure of a private business or a members club.  It cannot order closure, just offer guidance to its member clubs. 

[Mark Pearce]

another golf course is now considering suing EG

What cause of action do they have in mind?  It's all very well to talk about suing but is there a breach of contract?  Or negligence?  In the circumstances, I can't see either claim getting anywhere.

[Sean_A]

The EGU has no statutory authority to mandate closure of a private business or a members club.  It cannot order closure, just offer guidance to its member clubs.

Exactly...hence the word "advised".  Have you seen anything which states courses must close?  I am not saying closing due to optics is necessarily a bad thing, but jeepers, I hate the idea of perception being just as important as reality/truth/fact. If Cleeve Cloud opens I will be tempted to play.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

The EGU has no statutory authority to mandate closure of a private business or a members club.  It cannot order closure, just offer guidance to its member clubs.

Their home page states the following wording to declare themselves pope.


https://www.englandgolf.org/

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,


I am well aware that wiki is not the go to place for a legal definition but used it as Duncan was spouting off about golf not being in the definition whilst one of the two links he gave to back up his point did exactly that in practically the first sentence.


Adrian,


golf courses have had to close due to legislation pertaining to the Coronavirus. I am not sure where the law stands on the point of you and other employees playing but if you are the owner/leaseholder of the land then you might be covered as part of your private land as I know I am. However took the decision not to play to show some respect to those who have died and will die in the future from a personal ethical standpoint and as I did not think it looked good for customers to be told they could not play whilst playing myself.


I would suggest calling the local police HQ and asking might be a good idea and will save you having to hide from any drones flying by






Sean,


there is no confusion at all if you read the legislation it is pretty clear.


Were there to be any doubt I would have thought some courses would have tested it by now.


Like Mark, I would be interested in what the grounds will be to sue a golf body and suspect the club nextdoor to you is just blowing off steam.

[Mark Pearce]

The EGU has no statutory authority to mandate closure of a private business or a members club.  It cannot order closure, just offer guidance to its member clubs.

Their home page states the following wording to declare themselves pope.


https://www.englandgolf.org/

NO.  It states that it is the governing body for English Golf.  That doesn't mean they can, or even that they think they can, order any club to do anything.  Hence, as Sean has pointed out, the use of the word "advise".

[Adrian_Stiff]

The EGU has no statutory authority to mandate closure of a private business or a members club.  It cannot order closure, just offer guidance to its member clubs.

Their home page states the following wording to declare themselves pope.


https://www.englandgolf.org/

NO.  It states that it is the governing body for English Golf.  That doesn't mean they can, or even that they think they can, order any club to do anything.  Hence, as Sean has pointed out, the use of the word "advise".

As lways the English law is very confusing. I find it hard to understand what you are saying, when England Golf state..golf courses must close. Is that a fact or not? Police say, yes you can play. Minister of Sport is checking. Quite clearly it is not clear and some here say A and some say B. I think the determine issue could be is your public liability insurance still valid in this current situation, if not then you can't open by other definition I am of course not a lawyer though I am 23-7 in various court cases or appeals.

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,


you have contacted the police and they said it was okay to reopen. Well that is good news for you and I would have thought that if you have it in writing from the police that golf courses are allowed to open all you need to do is contact your insurance company to inform them. Could you maybe post the written consent to play please as though it does not count up here in Scotland it would be interesting to see the confirmation of what they have informed you.


As for the law. It is very clear if you read it wanting to see what it says. The only way that it isn't clear is if you don't want to accept it. With your apparent track record with court cases I am surprised you didn't go to court a couple of weeks ago. Still, I expect I will be able to go to your club website and book my tee for tomorrow. I just need to contact Police Scotland about if it might be considered as too long a drive at the present time. 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Dominic Raab has said that in order to relax measures five criteria have to be fulfilled. One of those is "Evidence showing a sustained and consistent fall in daily death rates". I am not aware of any country except China and South Korea where this is actually happening. It will be a very long time for this criterion to become fulfilled, making the UK possibly the country with the longest period of severe restrictions. Is this because time was lost in the beginning?

[Mark Pearce]

As lways the English law is very confusing. I find it hard to understand what you are saying, when England Golf state..golf courses must close.

Is England Golf the government?  Can it make laws?  The honest answer, when most people claim the law is confusing, is to point out that they aren't trying very hard.  In this case, the regulations (which are law) could be clearer.  But you know as well as the next man the difference between what the government says (law) and what England Law say (advice).  They cannot (and you know this) tell you, as a business owner, what to do.  The government, in an Act or in Regulations, can.  Honestly, suggesting that that is difficult to grasp misses the real point, which is that the regulations (law) are not clear and does your cause little good.

[SL_Solow]

Adrian,  I am not licensed to practice in the UK although my partners in our London office are qualified.  It seems that if you are confused as to the state of the law, rather than speculate on an internet site filled by architecture enthusiasts, a prudent business operator would call his/her lawyer.  From afar, i would not rely on any pronouncement by a golf association that does not have any governmental authority.  I have been the President of such an association in my state in the US and we make the limits of our "power" clear.  But if you have doubts, ask someone who is qualified and whose interests align with yours.  Unqualified opinions about matters of architectural taste are harmless and fun to debate.  Arguing about what a policy should be is the stuff that makes for a democracy.  Interpreting law is serious business which is why some of us devote our educations and professional life to that pursuit. I suggest that you find the right adviser.  It appears to be a pretty simple job. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,  I am not licensed to practice in the UK although my partners in our London office are qualified.  It seems that if you are confused as to the state of the law, rather than speculate on an internet site filled by architecture enthusiasts, a prudent business operator would call his/her lawyer.  From afar, i would not rely on any pronouncement by a golf association that does not have any governmental authority.  I have been the President of such an association in my state in the US and we make the limits of our "power" clear.  But if you have doubts, ask someone who is qualified and whose interests align with yours.  Unqualified opinions about matters of architectural taste are harmless and fun to debate.  Arguing about what a policy should be is the stuff that makes for a democracy.  Interpreting law is serious business which is why some of us devote our educations and professional life to that pursuit. I suggest that you find the right adviser.  It appears to be a pretty simple job.

The problem with lawyers is they can't understand the laws themselves. That is why there are court cases. There is no clarity with this situation at all. The Government have said you can now drive up to 30 minutes into the countryside to take exercise for up to 4 hours, which is a material change from you can't drive to a place for exercise and only up to 1 hour. on that basis you can drive to the golf club and presumably walk the course (as some MPs have been advocating). I can't see any reason why you could not hit a golf ball under those guidelines. So, the Government appear to have created an area where it is unclear, they are the law. EG have f* all to do with it other than advise. The only thing that is clear is it is not clear.