[Mark_Fine]

Other than OB which no golfer likes, what other common hazard (formal or informal) really strikes fear as well as excitement in EVERY golfer.  It is not a bunker, it is not a mound or hollow, it is not trees, it is not rough,…,  isn’t it water? 


If the 17th hole at TPC Sawgrass was surrounded by sand, would it really scare everyone and create the same excitement?  If the 15th at Augusta National had huge grass swale in front of the green instead of water, would it still be as exhilarating?  If the 11th hole at Merion was just a perched green with sand and/or hollows around it, would it create the same nerves and trepidation?  If the Barry Burn at Carnoustie was piped and grassed over, would the hole be as terrifying to play? 


Like any feature or hazard, they all can be overused and their interest and excitement can turn to frustration and controversy.  "Pete Dye can kiss my @%* is a common statement when someone hits their ball in the water on #17.  But if they knock it on and happen to make the putt they have a story to tell for a life time.  If used in moderation, is water at the top of the hazard list when it comes to exciting golf?

[Garland Bayley]

We'll put you down as masochistic with a morbid curiosity.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Water is exciting when it comes into play on only a few holes during the round. When it is an unrelenting presence it ceases to be exciting and becomes drudgery. There are reasons C&C didn’t use the stream at Sand Hills or the lake at Hidden Creek. Clearly they think it is more in the way than exciting.

[Ira Fishman]

Water is exciting when it comes into play on only a few holes during the round. When it is an unrelenting presence it ceases to be exciting and becomes drudgery. There are reasons C&C didn’t use the stream it Sand Hills or the lake at Hidden Creek. Clearly they don’t think it is more in the way than exciting.

I agree completely. My one play at Butler National was worth the experience, but once is enough. On the other hand, Streamsong Red and Blue both have a nice balance. I also have less of a problem with several holes with parallel water hazards such as the River Course at Kohler. And everyone once in a while, you find a really interesting stretch where water does add some excitement such as 11-13 at Duke (a better course than credit is given on this site).


Ira

[David_Tepper]

Would Amen Corner at AGNC have become so famous if not for the fact that there is water in play on all 3 holes? I doubt it.

[Mark Pearce]

No.

[Thomas Dai]

Streams, especially diagonal ones, and the sea, are okay. No great fan of ponds however. And water features seem to be somewhat maintenance intensive.
Water is though photogenic, especially when viewed against a varied green background sprinkled with bright yellow patches and a blue sky and more and more these days views seem more important than design/strategy/playability/maintenance practices.


atb

[Peter Pallotta]

As per the thread on deep bunkers, and compared to any water hazard anywhere: from where I sit, the Road Hole bunker (and/or the Hell) is so much better, for so many reasons. 

[Mike Bodo]

Yes and Yes! I love what water features can add aesthetically-speaking to a course, but I don't care for too many forced carries in an 18 hole round. I don't know what the right number is, but 6 forced water carries in a round is a bit much.

[Tom_Doak]

There is nothing exciting about a water hazard.  It's the coronavirus of golf hazards - you're flirting with death, so you avoid it at all costs, unless you're stupid.


But just like coronavirus, it's harder to avoid if you are poor/carry a high handicap, and that's when you really start to see how the rich/low handicappers are willing to amuse themselves at your risk.

[Mark_Fine]

So are some here saying, the holes I mentioned (plus those at Amen Corner) would be more exciting without the water hazards?

[Philip Gordillo]

Although not a hazard per se, there nothing more exciting (and sometimes terrifying) than playing in front of a gallery.  Especially a Member/Member playoff on a par 3.  Easy to lose function of large muscle groups!

[Mark_Fine]

Philip,
Amen!  I was once on the putting green to the right of the 1st tee at Merion and heard this golf ball comes whizzing by.  I looked over at the tee and it was Dr. J!  He proceeded to shank an second ball in the same direction (even though you are not supposed to take a mulligan).  He then hit a third ball somewhere down the fairway. Everyone on the veranda having lunch who had stopped eating to watch him tee off applauded.  Even Dr. J chokes 


Just think if your playoff hole was the par three 16th at Cypress Point!  Think that carry over the water would make you a little more excited and nervous? What the hell was Mackenzie thinking building that hole or even the one before it    Actually we can blame some woman for the 16th. She talked Mackenzie into that one 

[Philip Gordillo]

So true Mark.  Crazy about Dr. J at Merion!.  At Cypress, I was the only one in my group that went for the green on #16 my only time playing it.  I dreamed of making my first hole-in-one there but went into the Pacific instead.  And this was just a random Tuesday many years ago!

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not so sure I agree with the original premise.  In many cases it can be bunkers, especially when they're penal and you know you're gonna be dead if you go in a deep, nasty one vs clearing it and getting a big kick or getting your ball in the garden spot.

[archie_struthers]

 


Think that water is one of the best hazards when used well, the obvious example being Rae's Creek. I'd opine that high grass and fescue is more controversial in that it slows play so much. At least it does here in the states where players often won't give up on a ball and really don't get how to use provisionals to best effect!

[Mark_Fine]

Kalen,
Are you in the camp with some of the others that the above holes mentioned would be more exciting without the water hazards? 


Archie,
Agree, it needs to be used well and not be repetitive.


Philip,
At least you gave it a go! How did you all do on #15?  Much shorter carry of course but equally as thrilling of a shot 

[Ira Fishman]

There is nothing exciting about a water hazard.  It's the coronavirus of golf hazards - you're flirting with death, so you avoid it at all costs, unless you're stupid.


But just like coronavirus, it's harder to avoid if you are poor/carry a high handicap, and that's when you really start to see how the rich/low handicappers are willing to amuse themselves at your risk.

Almost impossible to describe how tone deaf a post. Or how inappropriate the analogy.


Ira

[Garland Bayley]

So are some here saying, the holes I mentioned (plus those at Amen Corner) would be more exciting without the water hazards?

All the water on 12 does is add a penalty stroke. Without the water, you have to play a recovery from a ditch. Why allow the boring drop for an easier shot?

[Dave Esler]

Mark, to paraphrase Mr. Jones this non-Masters week, all accidents are not created equally-as are not all water hazards.   


for example; #17 at TPC (to use your example) treats the completely fat shot or "sclaff" equal to the the slightest misclub, wind gust, or groove-thin....all proceed to the drop area.   In contrast, the creek at ANGC #13 treats a barely "bad number" by Phil Mickelson very differently than an overhthetop big slice by a twelve handicap; Phil can still get up and down for par, and the 12 Hndcp can still make par or even birdie the hole.   


For that reason alone, I have always liked the way that a narrow meandering creek can influence strategy all the way back to the tee, and mete out punishment more severely to the expert than it might to the "bogey" player.


It is the rarest of hazards that can treat the world class player more severely than the average club player.
 

[Carl Rogers]

It is exciting only for 1 second after the ball goes plop.

[Matt_Cohn]

Yes. I can’t recall a swale ever getting in my head five hours before I played it. 

[Jeff Schley]

Are we terming gorse a "hazard"?  I much rather have water in place of gorse.  For gorse you have to look for the ball, declare it lost after 5 minutes or take an unplayable if you did find it many times, and slows down the game.  With water it is a hero carry many times and you most of the time know if you made it or not by watching for a splash.

I like water hazards used judiciously.  I also like gorse if used judiciously, but when native to some areas and allowed to run wild it overtakes a course and makes it an unpleasant slog.

EDIT: also forgot about when water is deemed a lateral hazard which helps with failed shots as well.

[Sean_A]

Sometimes water is very exciting, but I wouldn't say categorically water is the most exciting feature.

BTW... I like some OOB. Some cool holes have been designed using OOB very well.

Ciao

[Mark_Fine]

From the posts so far, it seems the controversial aspect of water is pretty clear.  No surprise there.  However, not a lot of consensus so far on water being the most exciting hazard.  But no one has recommended any more exciting alternatives to the water hazards for most of the holes mentioned above?   If there was no water on any of the finishing holes at TPC Sawgrass would they be more or less exciting?  If there was no water on the finishing holes at Bay Hill would they be more exciting?  If there was no water on 15-17 at Cypress Point or on the 18th at Pebble Beach would the holes be more exciting?  If they eliminated the water on the finishing holes at Quail Hollow would the holes be more exciting?  If they replaced the pond on the 18th at Torrey Pines South with a bunker would the hole provide a more exciting finish? 

Bobby Jones was once asked how he played the island green hole at East Lake and he responded, “with an old ball”.  I wonder if he viewed that hole as exciting?  I don’t know if he liked it, but it sure got his attention. 

Final thought, there are no water hazards on the front nine of Augusta National.  If they reversed the nines for the tournament, would the back nine finish be as exciting? 

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