[Tommy Williamsen]

When guests play your home course what features do they notice the most?
I used to belong to a course where folks noticed two things; it was flat and the greens were featureless. Of course, they would say something like this, “It sure is flat here on the eastern shore of Maryland.” “There isn’t a lot of break on the greens.”
At Ballyhack they notice the elevation change, and the bunkering. After I played the front nine with Darius Oliver he said, “That’s nine holes I won’t soon forget. I have never played nine holes like it.”

At Musgrove Mill it was that plethora of sandy waste areas.
At Four Streams it was the conditioning and the bunkering.
At Bryce Resort where I live, they notice that it is pretty and easy to score on.

[Ira Fishman]

Generally the first thing they notice is the scorecard showing how short the course is. They then tend to be surprised that scoring is not easy because the greens are small with quite a bit of slope and contour. It also has a number of blind and semi-blind shots. If the members would embrace it (and they won't) if made firm and fast at a Par 69 v a semi-fake 71, it would be a potential gem.


Ira

[Bernie Bell]

Interesting question Tom.  Polite guests might find some things "conspicuous" that they don't mention!  The most common remark I get about my home course is "old school," which is vague.  It's not an "old money" or "establishment" place, I think they mean it is an older-style routing (1945 by and large), built for walkers, not long, compact green to tee, with some quirky holes and without internal housing or a continuous cart path.


I've only played Bryce twice, but one feature that I noticed was the creek.  I don't recall that the design brought it into play frequently, but I was often aware of it.  The valley was quiet and the creek makes a very pleasing sound. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Bernie the creek comes into play on very few holes. Ed Ault’s instruction was to build a course that reporters could play without a lot of fear. He succeeded in that but missed many opportunities to make the course more interesting.

[Jeff_Brauer]

For the last few years, it's the warehoused covering the greens.  As you drive around, sometimes you can pick out a former green under the weeds.

[Ira Fishman]

Tom and Bernie,


Given that both of you have played a lot in the DC area, I am curious about your reactions to my post about Kenwood. I have struggled to try to like it, but there were a couple of weeks last year where it played firm and the necks to the greens were widened—it really was fun, but alas we went back to green and soft. We have a new Superintendent so here’s to wishful thinking.


Thanks,


Ira

[Bernie Bell]

Ira - I've never had the pleasure.  Short doesn't scare me off though!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tom and Bernie,


Given that both of you have played a lot in the DC area, I am curious about your reactions to my post about Kenwood. I have struggled to try to like it, but there were a couple of weeks last year where it played firm and the necks to the greens were widened—it really was fun, but alas we went back to green and soft. We have a new Superintendent so here’s to wishful thinking.


Thanks,


Ira

I have played Kenwood only once and that was about twenty-five years ago. It was when I could play a bit. I thought it was short, except for a few longer holes toward the middle of the round. I remember the terrain was interesting and that there were some beautiful trees. I also remember it being fun. I enjoyed my round. I can understand not falling in love with the course and in the major league of the nearby courses, Chevy Chase, Columbia, Congressional, and Woodmont, the course doesn't measure up but a friend of mine grew up on the course and has only wonderful memories of the club and course.

[Mark Pearce]

At Northumberland, it's the racecourse
AT Elie, it's the periscope
At Crail, it's the beach

[Kevin_Reilly]

Eighteen holes that are so different that they are easy to remember even for someone who isn't blessed with a golf course memory like Tommy, Gib, Ran or Bill V.  For example, we don't have a collection of 400 yd par 4s that blend together in someone's mind.  The par 3s in particular are different.

[MKrohn]

Sadly, I generally get, "its a really nice clubhouse"

[A.G._Crockett]

Absurdly penal bunkering, especially the fairway bunkers.  There is ONE par 4 or 5 without a fairway bunker, and almost all are effectively a full shot penalty because of the high faces.  And in the greenside bunkers, it's a 50-50 random shot as to whether or not you will have a stance and/or a full swing.  Literally, the single best instruction that you can give a visiting player about the course is simply to avoid the bunkers at all costs.

[Paul Carey]

Tom and Bernie,


Given that both of you have played a lot in the DC area, I am curious about your reactions to my post about Kenwood. I have struggled to try to like it, but there were a couple of weeks last year where it played firm and the necks to the greens were widened—it really was fun, but alas we went back to green and soft. We have a new Superintendent so here’s to wishful thinking.


Thanks,


Ira

I agree.  Kenwood has some fun holes and some tough holes as well.  I haven’t played in a wgphile but it seemed they choked fairways to make it as tough as possible and took a lot of fun out of it.   Widen it up, remove a few trees and let’s go have some fun.

[Ira Fishman]

Absurdly penal bunkering, especially the fairway bunkers.  There is ONE par 4 or 5 without a fairway bunker, and almost all are effectively a full shot penalty because of the high faces.  And in the greenside bunkers, it's a 50-50 random shot as to whether or not you will have a stance and/or a full swing.  Literally, the single best instruction that you can give a visiting player about the course is simply to avoid the bunkers at all costs.

Finley? The bunkers indeed are relentless. Too bad because the routing is good as are the greens.


Ira

[A.G._Crockett]

Absurdly penal bunkering, especially the fairway bunkers.  There is ONE par 4 or 5 without a fairway bunker, and almost all are effectively a full shot penalty because of the high faces.  And in the greenside bunkers, it's a 50-50 random shot as to whether or not you will have a stance and/or a full swing.  Literally, the single best instruction that you can give a visiting player about the course is simply to avoid the bunkers at all costs.

Finley? The bunkers indeed are relentless. Too bad because the routing is good as are the greens.


Ira

Ira,

Yes, this is Finley.  "Relentless" is a very gracious word for the bunkering, too.  They are called many other things by the members...

I'll say this for Fazio's bunkering at Finley; the placement of the fairway bunkers is perfect; some of the best I've ever seen.  He presents what SHOULD be near-perfect risk-reward options on many of the holes.  The problems come in with the high faces that take any long club out of the golfers hands and remove heroic recoveries from the equation, which is a shame.

More of a problem than that, though, are the fingers that extend into the bunkers from the margins, both fairway and greenside.  These create the problems with stance and swing, and introduce a silly element of randomness where two feet in one direction or the other makes the difference between having a shot toward the green or not. 


It's also important to note that the maintenance staff HATES the bunkers because they almost all have to be completely hand-raked, and because of the high faces that constantly wash out in heavy rain.  A Fazio associate has done a long-term plan for the course that includes some degree of reworking of the bunkers, but I have no idea when or if that might happen.

[Ira Fishman]

Absurdly penal bunkering, especially the fairway bunkers.  There is ONE par 4 or 5 without a fairway bunker, and almost all are effectively a full shot penalty because of the high faces.  And in the greenside bunkers, it's a 50-50 random shot as to whether or not you will have a stance and/or a full swing.  Literally, the single best instruction that you can give a visiting player about the course is simply to avoid the bunkers at all costs.

Finley? The bunkers indeed are relentless. Too bad because the routing is good as are the greens.


Ira

Ira,

Yes, this is Finley.  "Relentless" is a very gracious word for the bunkering, too.  They are called many other things by the members...

I'll say this for Fazio's bunkering at Finley; the placement of the fairway bunkers is perfect; some of the best I've ever seen.  He presents what SHOULD be near-perfect risk-reward options on many of the holes.  The problems come in with the high faces that take any long club out of the golfers hands and remove heroic recoveries from the equation, which is a shame.

More of a problem than that, though, are the fingers that extend into the bunkers from the margins, both fairway and greenside.  These create the problems with stance and swing, and introduce a silly element of randomness where two feet in one direction or the other makes the difference between having a shot toward the green or not. 


It's also important to note that the maintenance staff HATES the bunkers because they almost all have to be completely hand-raked, and because of the high faces that constantly wash out in heavy rain.  A Fazio associate has done a long-term plan for the course that includes some degree of reworking of the bunkers, but I have no idea when or if that might happen.

A.G.


We have a condo just across Route 54 from Finley. Even if we didn’t belong to Hope Valley, we probably would play at Duke rather than Finley. I picked relentless out of politeness; brutal might be the better term. I hope the changes do soften them. It is a good routing with some nice elevation changes.


Ira

[Simon Holt]

At North Berwick for a first timer:

• Walls
• 16th green
• OOB Car park on 18
• Beach in play

Pretty much in that order of surprise at the end of a round.


Happy Easter everyone.


Simon

[Tommy Williamsen]

At North Berwick for a first timer:

• Walls
• 16th green
• OOB Car park on 18
• Beach in play

Pretty much in that order of surprise at the end of a round.


Happy Easter everyone.


Simon

Not 15?

[Michael Whitaker]

At Musgrove Mill it was that plethora of sandy waste areas.

Tommy - when I was a member at Musgrove the most conspicuous feature for guests was the isolated islands/areas of knee-high grass that were maintained as hazzard’s. None has ever seen anything like that before, especially as used on #3 and #8. Hitting in those areas was basically a lost ball and more penal than a water hazzard. I always considered those “grass hazzards” bizarre and never understood the rationale for their existence.

[jeffwarne]

Used to be views OFF the course,and uphill climbs to downhill tee shots.
Now it's centerline hazards, and ON course views

[Tommy Williamsen]

At Musgrove Mill it was that plethora of sandy waste areas.

Tommy - when I was a member at Musgrove the most conspicuous feature for guests was the isolated islands/areas of knee-high grass that were maintained as hazzard’s. None has ever seen anything like that before, especially as used on #3 and #8. Hitting in those areas was basically a lost ball and more penal than a water hazzard. I always considered those “grass hazzards” bizarre and never understood the rationale for their existence.

Good point. The area on eight was especially penal. I guess it depended if they were in those areas or not. The shot into eight green is a bit scary with the river on the right and the gunch on the left.

[Michael Whitaker]

At Musgrove Mill it was that plethora of sandy waste areas.

Tommy - when I was a member at Musgrove the most conspicuous feature for guests was the isolated islands/areas of knee-high grass that were maintained as hazzard’s. None has ever seen anything like that before, especially as used on #3 and #8. Hitting in those areas was basically a lost ball and more penal than a water hazzard. I always considered those “grass hazzards” bizarre and never understood the rationale for their existence.

Good point. The area on eight was especially penal. I guess it depended if they were in those areas or not. The shot into eight green is a bit scary with the river on the right and the gunch on the left.

Never understood the gunch. It only punished the weaker golfers... never the better players. I asked Tallman many times about the rationale for that type of hazzard, but he would just smile. I’m not one who thinks there is such a thing as “fair” in golf, but that was the most unfair features I’ve ever seen on a course.

[Pete_Pittock]

     We have two courses which are exceeding different.  One with large greens and once 100+ bunkers, the other small greens with a lot of ground features, as well as an envirmentally protected creek/march system. We too have gunch. When Cupp designed the course in the late 90s mounding was common between fairways to give the feeling of separation, as well as hiding cart paths.  With irrigation and steepness they became grass "hazards", which slowed up play looking for balls and trudging back if a provisional ball wasn't hit.  They are now penalty areas per our local rules, which both speeding up the processing and eliminating the "distance" of stroke and distance.
      My other home course has two massive parallel dunes, which make the 3rd and 15th look like steep half-pipes.

[Tommy Williamsen]

At Musgrove Mill it was that plethora of sandy waste areas.

Tommy - when I was a member at Musgrove the most conspicuous feature for guests was the isolated islands/areas of knee-high grass that were maintained as hazzard’s. None has ever seen anything like that before, especially as used on #3 and #8. Hitting in those areas was basically a lost ball and more penal than a water hazzard. I always considered those “grass hazzards” bizarre and never understood the rationale for their existence.

I have asked Jeff Tallman questions like that and his usual answer is "Don't hit it in there." Of course he doesn't play much anymore.


Good point. The area on eight was especially penal. I guess it depended if they were in those areas or not. The shot into eight green is a bit scary with the river on the right and the gunch on the left.

Never understood the gunch. It only punished the weaker golfers... never the better players. I asked Tallman many times about the rationale for that type of hazzard, but he would just smile. I’m not one who thinks there is such a thing as “fair” in golf, but that was the most unfair features I’ve ever seen on a course.

[Simon Holt]

At North Berwick for a first timer:

• Walls
• 16th green
• OOB Car park on 18
• Beach in play

Pretty much in that order of surprise at the end of a round.


Happy Easter everyone.


Simon

Not 15?

Probably in a group of GCAers.  13 and 16 make much more of an impact to the 99% of visitors.


If you were to overhear conversations in the clubhouse then the ones I listed would be there or thereabouts.  14 would probably come up in conversation before 15 too.

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