What if you owned it

[archie_struthers]

 


For all you legal eagles out there a query. Let's say you own a golf course in NJ or NY where it has been banned for now. Could you take a walk and play ALONE without  repercussions. Forgetting the optics which might not be pretty what's the word?


Is there a difference between privates (member owned) and owned as a for profit by an individual? interesting .

[Steve Lapper]

Archie,


   As someone who owns one in each, the answer is (and actually supported by legal opinion) that so long as we were not engaged in a commercial operation, nor presenting any danger to anyone else and was on our own land, it is absolutely legal.


   I will only go onto the NY one when it is permissible under the most recent Governor's executive decision.

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting topic give that some Clubs are actually member/shareholder owned.
I wonder what the position is regarding 'owner/shareholder' play in various countries? Mind, irrespective of ownership and owner/shareholder rights etc playing just now ain't the right thing to do.
Be nice to know the legal position in various countries though in case someone somewhere decided to push the issue. Forewarned is forearmed and all that.
atb

[archie_struthers]

 


Thomas we are working the Vulcan Mind Meld on this one ...I was just thinking about liability.Certainly no one want anyone getting sick because of lax enforcement . But ?

[Thomas Dai]

Thomas we are working the Vulcan Mind Meld on this one ...I was just thinking about liability.Certainly no one want anyone getting sick because of lax enforcement . But ?

I’m certainly not pressing to see play happen, not the right thing at all, indeed on the eastern side of the 3,000 mile wide pond we’re not supposed to, but I would like to know the position so as to be forewarned/forearmed in case some other member/shareholder does. Hopefully no owner/shareholder will but you never know ....
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Coincidentally, that was how The Sheep Ranch got its name.


When first discussed, it was believed that they would have difficulty getting zoning permits for a private course on the coast.  One of the partners speculated, what if it was just a ranch, where we grazed sheep?  And the co-owners of the ranch wanted to go hit a ball around their property?


Mr. McKee promptly went and got them the zoning permit, so they would never have to make that argument in public.

[Thomas Dai]

Coincidentally, that was how The Sheep Ranch got its name.
When first discussed, it was believed that they would have difficulty getting zoning permits for a private course on the coast.  One of the partners speculated, what if it was just a ranch, where we grazed sheep? And the co-owners of the ranch wanted to go hit a ball around their property?
Mr. McKee promptly went and got them the zoning permit, so they would never have to make that argument in public.

I did wonder about this in relation to Coul links. And other such projects which suffer from go-ahead permission issues.
atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

Coincidentally, that was how The Sheep Ranch got its name.
When first discussed, it was believed that they would have difficulty getting zoning permits for a private course on the coast.  One of the partners speculated, what if it was just a ranch, where we grazed sheep? And the co-owners of the ranch wanted to go hit a ball around their property?
Mr. McKee promptly went and got them the zoning permit, so they would never have to make that argument in public.

I did wonder about this in relation to Coul links. And other such projects which suffer from go-ahead permission issues.
atb

If you looked at one my couls posts, this is exactly what I eluded too without saying it. You have to be three smart to beat the planners. The detail is in the reams and reams of PPGs and how you can have angles to outsmart them. Usually they are idiots and will fall into a trap that they set thereself.

[Thomas Dai]

Coincidentally, that was how The Sheep Ranch got its name.
When first discussed, it was believed that they would have difficulty getting zoning permits for a private course on the coast.  One of the partners speculated, what if it was just a ranch, where we grazed sheep? And the co-owners of the ranch wanted to go hit a ball around their property?
Mr. McKee promptly went and got them the zoning permit, so they would never have to make that argument in public.

I did wonder about this in relation to Coul links. And other such projects which suffer from go-ahead permission issues.
atb

If you looked at one my couls posts, this is exactly what I eluded too without saying it. You have to be three smart to beat the planners. The detail is in the reams and reams of PPGs and how you can have angles to outsmart them. Usually they are idiots and will fall into a trap that they set thereself.

I recall your thought and making a similar comment myself.
Coul Links = Sheep Ranch Farm ... maybe with rare breeds sheep?
atb

[Steve Lapper]

The laws for this in the U.S. vary from state-to-state, however there is a fairly consistent thread amongst them all: Land owners may conduct certain activities on their own private property that have no possible impact nor pose any threats whatsoever to others. Only specified soil or water disturbances raise the hackle for use variances, or the need for zoning permits.


 For example, I live on 8 acres and should I want to put 18 cups and flagsticks in the ground for my sole benefit, I'd violate no laws. If I should want to build a pond and excavate bunkers or tear down every tree on my property, I'd likely run afoul of local zoning or county-state environmental laws.


 A prominent regional law firm has given a number of us an opinion that a golf course owned and operated by a entity with less than 50 owners/investors and not operating any commercial enterprise open to any non-owner/investor play may use the course for their own benefit.


 I imagine it is a specified number of equity-holding members that trips the wire for exempted use. The more relevant truth is that no private club in their right mind in NY-NJ-CT, or PA would want to suffer the poor optics of trying to open up to play challenging their states executive decisions.


 Just yesterday, the MET Section issued a ridiculous interpretation of this week's NY ED ruling suggesting it is okay to return to limited, safe play. It was immediately re-published in the NY Post and ridiculed and derided as insane.


  We choose to ignore it and follow the NY State ban. These are most interesting times. Stay safe and healthy!

[SL_Solow]

Steve,  do you know who the MET consulted in issuing their "interpretation".  We took the opposite tack here in Chicago notwithstanding a fair amount of pressure.  Of course our Governor was very clear after an initial misstep

[Steve Lapper]

Steve,  do you know who the MET consulted in issuing their "interpretation".  We took the opposite tack here in Chicago notwithstanding a fair amount of pressure.  Of course our Governor was very clear after an initial misstep

Shel,


  I wish I did, although my layman's take is that some law-school dropout was enlisted to craft a rather specious argument.


  With NY & NJ locked in the largest CV battle inside the US, I can't imagine wanting to be the MET Section club that would choose to be the public face for challenging Gov.'s Cuomo and Murphy. The former is a golfer and the latter not, but some need to reminded that springtime golf doesn't outweigh public health at this time.

[William_G]

Thank you Mr. Mckee


Thank you Mr. Keiser


those who understand building and owning are far far and few few in between

[Mike_Young]

Say you owned a sod farm and decided you would charge people to take a 5 mile hike around your farm on a specific trail....the carrot eaters who despise golf would be all into the "hike"....

[Tom_Doak]

  With NY & NJ locked in the largest CV battle inside the US, I can't imagine wanting to be the MET Section club that would choose to be the public face for challenging Gov.'s Cuomo and Murphy. The former is a golfer and the latter not, but some need to reminded that springtime golf doesn't outweigh public health at this time.

Steve:


But the MGA also includes a few courses in Connecticut, where golf is A-OK right now, isn't it?


They of course should not be offering legal opinions though.


Public health and politics seem to be intertwined more than they should be.  It seems no coincidence that the strictest golf ban in the USA (not even clarifying whether it's legal to mow greens) comes from my state, whose governor's name keeps being whispered as a potential VP pick.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I live on site at the golf club as does the clubhouse manager he has played 36 every day for the last couple weeks. I played yesterday and today, I don't see I am doing anything wrong as I live here and its my garden.


Missed an eight footer for a 69 on the last, we played in 2 hrs 20 mins. Par 68 most of the holes were only 3 inches across!


Golf is so much better without people.

[Ronald Montesano]

the carrot eaters who despise golf would be all into the "hike"


I'm a carrot eater. However, I don't despise golf. If they were into the hike, wouldn't the see the golf?


Up to a $10K fine for golf in NY. I don't believe the individuals get fined, however.


I've heard stories about golfers in Syracuse, western New York, and metro NYC, who broke the 6 feet rule and got us all banned from the game. It was an impossible dream, albeit one that lasted for 2-3 weeks before we awakened.

[jeffwarne]

https://nypost.com/2020/04/09/no-more-golfing-in-new-york-during-coronavirus-pande

The order was very clear. Some just want to interpret it different ways.
There were multiple clarififications handed down by the Governor's office after inquiries by different organizations -all in caps that said -COURSES CLOSED


The MGA is NOT the MET "Section".
The MGA is the amateur golf association covering Metro NY, NJ and parts of CT.
The MET Section is one of 41 PGA of America Sections and Covers Metro NY, Long Island and parts of CT(no New Jersey)
The MET Section recommended at least 2 weeks ago that no staff be present if clubs insisted on providing access.
ironically, it was the STATE run courses that were the most blatant operators,with carts and a hub of activity at Montauk Downs and Bethpage.


That said, at some point common sense needs to address the situations, with landscapers 4 to a truck doing "essential" business, and denial of 4 solo bag carrying golfers on a 525 acre tract of land.(the reality of many remote private clubs in NY in April)
This is going to need to be true in all walks of the economy, because this is going to be with us a long time.
There are many way people can return to work responsibly, and there are many ways currently that make little sense(grocery store, Walmart, crowded parks, in person voting in Wisconsin-I'm pretty stunned such an obviously ignorant decision could be split on party lines but I digress....)
My daughter lives across the street from a county golf course in Seattle. When they closed 3-4 weeks ago, they locked the entire property. So the small nearby 5 acre greenbelt Park is PACKED, making exercise and social distancing difficult, if not impossible.
Couldn't they allow the next door 150 acre County park golf course to be used, with roped off greens, to be used as green space for exercise?
The solidarity argument is nonsense as that will wear thin as Government picks which businesses fail and which don't.
It's not just 2 weeks-it's going to be months.
Sunlight and exercise are important to maintain a strong immne system.
And urban areas will not enjoy the same freedoms as rural/suburban areas.
But as long as super conservative responsible social distancing is practiced, a place like rural Wyoming or evn upstate NY, should not be subject to the same treatment as highly urban NYC or Detroit.

[Ronald Montesano]

a place like rural Wyoming or even upstate NY, should not be subject to the same treatment as highly urban NYC or Detroit.

You're giving us waaaayyy too much credit. We've already shown that #WeTheUpstate are incapable of selfless golf.

Speaking for Erie County (NY) we are hoping to peak this week or next, and then begin the decline in illness and death.

[jeffwarne]

a place like rural Wyoming or even upstate NY, should not be subject to the same treatment as highly urban NYC or Detroit.

You're giving us waaaayyy too much credit. We've already shown that #WeTheUpstate are incapable of selfless golf.

Speaking for Erie County (NY) we are hoping to peak this week or next, and then begin the decline in illness and death.

I was thinking bigger issues than golf-like people being allowed to go solo into their offices.
I'm currently barred from going into my pro shop, on a 525 acre property 1/2 a mile from my house.
But local restaurants have lines out the door for takeout food.
I guess I'm having a hard time seeing why a single person , in a locked shop in Waynesboro GA, couldn't fill online and telephone orders from their "non essential" business (and what is deemed "essential" is absolutley mind blowing and soon to be another source of angst)
Because as I said, this isn't going away just because we pass "peak".

[Peter Pallotta]

The challenge moving forward, I think, will involve age-old organizational & decision-making dynamics and the unchanging levers/drivers of political power. In every state/province in North America, and at the federal levels of government, and even allowing for the best of intentions on everyone's part: health official/departments will be making the case for the importance of ever-more-comprehensive virus-related data (and for the increase in funding and staffing-levels and mandates needed to support that); and intergovernmental affairs departments will be lobbying for enhanced mechanisms for cross-state consultation and collaboration (and the creation of new national/international coordinating bodies to facilitate this); and treasury/budget departments will be stepping up to ask for more resources to handle the unprecedented needs/demands of the unemployed and of small business; and housing/social services officials will be scrambling to draw more attention (and support) from political leaders re: the critical issues of homelessness and rent-relief; etc etc. And at the very end of the line, garnering very little attention from key decision-makers and having very little control over the political drivers, will be the sports/recreations/parks officials hard pressed to make the case that their perspective/mandate is a critical one in this environment.             

[William_G]

politicians and their like are not my favorites

[John Kavanaugh]

The challenge moving forward, I think, will involve age-old organizational & decision-making dynamics and the unchanging levers/drivers of political power. In every state/province in North America, and at the federal levels of government, and even allowing for the best of intentions on everyone's part: health official/departments will be making the case for the importance of ever-more-comprehensive virus-related data (and for the increase in funding and staffing-levels and mandates needed to support that); and intergovernmental affairs departments will be lobbying for enhanced mechanisms for cross-state consultation and collaboration (and the creation of new national/international coordinating bodies to facilitate this); and treasury/budget departments will be stepping up to ask for more resources to handle the unprecedented needs/demands of the unemployed and of small business; and housing/social services officials will be scrambling to draw more attention (and support) from political leaders re: the critical issues of homelessness and rent-relief; etc etc. And at the very end of the line, garnering very little attention from key decision-makers and having very little control over the political drivers, will be the sports/recreations/parks officials hard pressed to make the case that their perspective/mandate is a critical one in this environment.           

And this was edited?

[Rob Marshall]

the carrot eaters who despise golf would be all into the "hike"


I'm a carrot eater. However, I don't despise golf. If they were into the hike, wouldn't the see the golf?


Up to a $10K fine for golf in NY. I don't believe the individuals get fined, however.


I've heard stories about golfers in Syracuse, western New York, and metro NYC, who broke the 6 feet rule and got us all banned from the game. It was an impossible dream, albeit one that lasted for 2-3 weeks before we awakened.

Rumor has it that one club in Rochester had the police show up with 60 guys and a couple of kegs on the patio............

[Nigel Islam]

A big part of me is hoping someone makes reference to golf being played on a Beet Farm in this thread.