Random Augusta questions (added pic of #5 construction)

[Matt_Cohn]

1. Jack Nicklaus' renovations—the group of bunkers on 3 and the swale around the back of the green on 13—seem inconsistent with the rest of the course. Should they be undone, and if so, is there an issue of not wanting to appear to slight Nicklaus?


2. Why so much fairway between the green and bunkers on #12? Why not just make it green?



3. Not a question, but the extent of reconstruction each summer is hard to comprehend. Here is the reconstruction of #5 a couple of summers ago. I knew they lengthened it. I didn't realize they rebuilt every inch of the hole from (below) the ground up. Unreal.



4. Why did they put the tributary to Rae's Creek underground where it crosses 13 fairway? Where did it go into Rae's creek?

[JMEvensky]

Thanks for asking #2--I've always wondered about that myself.

[Alex Miller]

I don't know the answer to #2 and it might just be years of watching and enjoying that I feel this way, but I really like the problems the fairway causes for the players. There's always a good mix of shots being played because the player cannot dump the ball onto the edge of the green from those bunkers.

[David_Elvins]

2.  There is a dip there that would look weird and be harder to maintain if it was green.

[Jim Sherma]

I always assumed that the swale on 13 was to help move water coming down the hillside around the green to the creek without it running across the green. Also I think I remember reading that the green was raised to be higher in case of flooding, or maybe that was only the 12th.

[Mike Bodo]

I always assumed that the swale on 13 was to help move water coming down the hillside around the green to the creek without it running across the green. Also I think I remember reading that the green was raised to be higher in case of flooding, or maybe that was only the 12th.

That was for sure done in the case of the 12th green. The creek is nearly reduced to a trickle as it meanders down 13 fairway and cuts across 13 green most Masters, but I suspect when the course was originally designed the creek was more prone to greater fluctuations in flow and height which may explain why the 13th is as raised as it is. It very well could be the green was built on a natural site that just so happened to sit that much higher than the creek. I suspect the latter is more the case than the former, but I'm sure the historians on this site can confirm.

[jeffwarne]

I always assumed that the swale on 13 was to help move water coming down the hillside around the green to the creek without it running across the green. Also I think I remember reading that the green was raised to be higher in case of flooding, or maybe that was only the 12th.

Jack Nicklaus was responsible for the swale in off season of 1983-84, requiring the second shot to be more precise, with less easy birdie bail.I remember when they did it, but it's hard to see from the spectator vantage point and I haven't been on that side of the green since before that period.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-04-10-sp-3236-story.html

[Matt_Cohn]

Huh, thought this would get more action. I like this old pic of 13 though, with the seamless transition from hill to green.

[Ian Andrew]

Hope this helps regarding the 13th - original contours are underneath

[Ian Andrew]

12th with open tributary 1948

[Ian Andrew]

12th looking back across 13th

[Ian Andrew]

12th green in 1951 - note the contours on the surface
This should help with your question about the green.

[Kalen Braley]

Ian,

Terrific pic of 12 on that last one.  Can you imagine them trying to play the hole with those kind of contours at today's stimp levels?

P.S.  Love the chain link fence, nothing like good old fashioned 50s style utilitarianism

[Tom_Doak]

I always assumed that the swale on 13 was to help move water coming down the hillside around the green to the creek without it running across the green. Also I think I remember reading that the green was raised to be higher in case of flooding, or maybe that was only the 12th.

The 12th was raised significantly at some point after Ian's picture -- two or three feet.  Just look how shallow the front bunker is here, and how the floor of the old back bunkers were well above the green.  [I think they were redesigned, instead of just the green coming up to hide the floor of them.]


I don't think the 13th was raised when the swale was built.  The old 13th always had drainage problems, even though the topo map underlying the plan Ian posted above shows that there was a small swale in back historically.  When I first visited Augusta in the summer of 1981, there was a guy drilling holes five feet deep in the green, and then backfilling with sand, to try and improve the drainage.  Nicklaus's change was for the two purposes of making the hole harder for players who bailed out long left with second shots, and improving the drainage.

[Mike Bodo]

Ian,

Terrific pic of 12 on that last one.  Can you imagine them trying to play the hole with those kind of contours at today's stimp levels?

Yeah, that's a much more contoured and interesting green than the current version. I'd love to see a version of the Masters played with a combination of current green complexes and those from the 1934 - 1950 era. This green would definitely replace the current #12 green in my perfect ANGC course. I'd also redo #7 and #9 greens to their original design and see how the players of today would fare with both their approaches and putting using today's stimp speeds.

[jeffwarne]

Ian,

Terrific pic of 12 on that last one.  Can you imagine them trying to play the hole with those kind of contours at today's stimp levels?

Yeah, that's a much more contoured and interesting green than the current version. I'd love to see a version of the Masters played with a combination of current green complexes and those from the 1934 - 1950 era. This green would definitely replace the current #12 green in my perfect ANGC course. I'd also redo #7 and #9 greens to their original design and see how the players of today would fare with both their approaches and putting using today's stimp speeds.

While I'd love to see both greens and multiple others return to original design, they wouldn't "fare" at all, unless they chipped in.
The ball simply wouldn't stop.
They jumped the shark years ago on green speeds and continue to flatten out and define each tiers.
Pity,as loss of slope/contour is the real tragedy of the "Augusta effect" which has far more reaching consequences in the golf world than the bright green rye grass is often falsely accused of being overwatered.

[Mike Bodo]

While I'd love to see both greens and multiple others return to original design, they wouldn't "fare" at all, unless they chipped in.
The ball simply wouldn't stop.
They jumped the shark years ago on green speeds and continue to flatten out and define each tiers.
Pity,as loos of slope/contour is the real tragedy of the "Augusta effect" which has far more reaching consequences in the golf world than the bright green rye grass is often falsely accused of being overwatered.

I guess the debate then becomes a return to greens with more contour and slope but with a lower stimp speeds or retain the somewhat flatter and faster current ANGC greens? Keep in mind, there is still a good deal of contour and slope on the majority of ANGC's greens. Problem is because the speeds of the greens are maintained at such a fast pace there are fewer hole locations they can use. Having watched a number of much older Masters broadcasts recently, I saw pin positions on certain greens that are rarely, if ever used today.

[Kalen Braley]

Speaking of random,


The staff at GD must have reached epic levels of boredom to put this together, including a fictional round by round analysis to boot. 


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/we-simulated-the-2020-masters-with-advanced-data%e2%80%94and-the-winner-is-%e2%80%a6/ar-BB12gBAD?li=BBnba9I

[Sandy Smith]

On Geoff Shackelford’s new podcast Ben Crenshaw has some interesting comments on 13 green and other changes at ANGC.  He politely throws Nicklaus under the bus, worth a listen.

[archie_struthers]

 




Matt, good stuff here great picture of 13!


Thinking Mr. Bodo hit the nail square. It makes a lot of sense that the water was sheet draining off the hill and across the green given the apparent slope. If this was the case makes sense to divert it and also keeps more water in the creek. My guess is it might have gotten a little soggy behind the green as it is most likely in shadows a good portion of the day. Further solidifies Mike's position.


I'm interested to see if  Ben Crenshaw felt this way. I've been to Augusta a few times but only as a spectator. Never had the good fortune to see this area in person. I'm not sure this made the hole any harder as the chip off the downhill lie would have been terrifying.

[Josh Bills]

In answering #4, I wonder if it was to prevent the mess that appears to have been present in the early years where the creeks appeared to combine and overflow and make a mess behind the 11th green near the 12th bridge.  Maybe just pipe it underground as no aspect of that creek going across 12 appears in play.  Here it is in 1934:





Though appears more under control here in 1939 from behind the 12th tee:

[Mark McKeever]

The amount of off season work scope these guys do is incredible.  I love seeing these in progress pictures, and it blows me away that they can get the course to look perfect every year.


Mark

[Mike Bodo]

The amount of off season work scope these guys do is incredible.  I love seeing these in progress pictures, and it blows me away that they can get the course to look perfect every year.

Agreed! I marvel at how picture perfect the course is every year and am amazed at its transition from being the rustic, rugged course it started out as to the pristine, refined and exceptionally manicured course it is today. It's like a tale of two courses. If I had a time capsule I would LOVE to play the course as it was in the late 30's and early 40's - prior to all of the major changes occurring - and compare it to how it plays now.

[Ian Andrew]

13th in 1955



Creek around 12th at the same time

Courtesy of the Milwaukee Metropolitan Sewerage District and Michigan State University Turfgrass Information Center

[jeffwarne]

The amount of off season work scope these guys do is incredible.  I love seeing these in progress pictures, and it blows me away that they can get the course to look perfect every year.


Mark

Big $$, and 5 months of off season coinciding with perfect summer growing season for bermuda. and an annual rye over seed to paint over anything not already perfect,...go a long way.
Many courses underdo substantial off season projects, but are hampered by minimal turf growth in their off season.