[Mike Hendren]

Headed across the Cumberland River this afternoon to Bells Bend to pick up some fescue sod.  Got me to thinking, on a large expanse of totally flat turf, with no options to add bunkering,  what 18 greens in America would you replicate/emulate if you were to site them permanently on 150 acres or so.   You can push up the greens and the surrounds as well, say within 10 yards or so of the putting surface.  Don't worry about drainage.  I'll start with 16 that I've played, then you add your two favorites:

National Golf Links of America #1
Talking Stick North #2 (obviously playing down the property boundary)
The Ocean Course #3
Rustic Canyon #4
Glens Falls #5
Cuscowilla #5
Spyglass Hills #4 (build up the front to create the downward slope and ring the green with low mounding)
 Yale #8 (ok, so I'll have to move quite a bit of dirt)
Beverly CC  #8
Blue Mound  #10
Knoll West #11 (the bicycle seat)
Hill Course at French Lick  #13
Fenway #15
Yeamans Hall #16
Forsgate #16
 Pebble Beach #17  (push up the green a couple of feet, then hollow out the left side a few feet to create a bit of a punchbowl back there).

Your two?

Bogey

[Tom_Doak]

The most obvious answer is #10 at Riviera, which is, in fact, a very flat hole.


Other than that, your list has zero greens by me, which is a double bogey.  Here are a couple to consider:


  7 at Ballyneal
13 at Barnbougle Dunes
13 at High Pointe, which should live on somewhere

[Mike Hendren]

Tom, it's hardly my fault that you are extremely discriminating when it comes to sites.  As for the three you mentioned I've only played Ballyneal and thought the 7th might require too much movement.  Ironically, the 2nd, 16th and 17th at Tumble Creek were your best candidates in my mind. 

Bogey

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, it's hardly my fault that you are extremely discriminating when it comes to sites.  As for the three you mentioned I've only played Ballyneal and thought the 7th might require too much movement.  Ironically, the 2nd, 16th and 17th at Tumble Creek were your best candidates in my mind. 

Bogey

I guess I don't understand how you are doing this.  Certainly, I haven't built many courses with really flat fairways, if that is a requirement.  Going off your first example [#1 at National], I thought your question was what green complexes didn't need that stuff, not limiting it to holes that didn't have interesting fairways.


The 7th at Ballyneal doesn't need all the fairway stuff going on, to make you want to play out to the right for your approach -- unless you can drive it right up in front of the green.  It's a lot like Riviera's 10th in that way.  It DOES rely on the big bank to the left of the green, but I assumed that was part of the package of what we could keep.

[Mike Hendren]

I was thinking the entire 150 acres would be maintained as "for sale" fairway.  Greens and immediate surrounds could be pushed up.    Stated otherwise,  template holes for dead flat sites with no bunkers, trees  or water features.     A true second-shot course.

[Mike_Young]

#12 at Smack Ass Creek.
I did a course in Alexanadira , LA at the end of runway at the old England Airforce Base. There was 1 two foot topo line in 1400 lin ft.  not much flatter can be found.  Since there was some fall tot he existing bayou from the land elevation I initially designed  a concave green with about three feet of internal contour , all below th exisiting grade...it could have functioned but could not get it past the powers that be..  Also would like to just "mow one out of flat on flat...sorry but I'm not good at naming a bunch of greens from other courses thatmight work in an imaginary setting...

[jeffwarne]

I was thinking the entire 150 acres would be maintained as "for sale" fairway.  Greens and immediate surrounds could be pushed up.    Stated otherwise,  template holes for dead flat sites with no bunkers, trees  or water features.     A true second-shot course.

Not trying to be smart ass but that sadly is the direction golf is going.
Both in terms of teaching indoors and simulators where the emphasis is more and more on the "swing" and technique, rather than the "shot" (when a major factor of a "shot" is slope of the stance/lie and/or wind. and their compounded importance in shaping or holding a ball when approaching a green with slope and tilt.
and as a result of super fast fairways not allowing the ball to stop until flat(or rough)ground is found..


In short, flat fairway lies make less interesting greens.

[Mike Hendren]

JW, what better way to make the game affordable than selling the fairways every year!


Okay, let’s go at this another way: what 18 greens could be built on any site with elevation changes of no more than 20 feet.  You can have all the fairway humps and bumps you want but no water, sand, trees or rough.

[jeffwarne]

JW, what better way to make the game affordable than selling the fairways every year!


Okay, let’s go at this another way: what 18 greens could be built on any site with elevation changes of no more than 20 feet.  You can have all the fairway humps and bumps you want but no water, sand, trees or rough.

I've often thought that 18 greens out in the middle of one height of cut would be cool where one plays over and around bunkers(sorry) and chooses his route-so yeah the sod farm route is a cool concept.
Otway in a sick kind've way is this with a common fairway area shared by many holes-then playing away from each otehr to greens on the perimeter.
Gweedore has stretch of 3-4(maybe more they've made some changes) holes of pick your line amidst wide open undulating terrain and it's amazing

[Peter Pallotta]

Okay, let’s go at this another way: what 18 greens could be built on any site with elevation changes of no more than 20 feet.  You can have all the fairway humps and bumps you want but no water, sand, trees or rough.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this.
I somehow can't see many/any of the great modern greens still being great in that context.
They are considered great (maybe ?) because of the 'relationship' they create with everything leading up to them. What would they be without that specific context but some roly-poly eye candy or a template for template's sake?
But I'm missing/misunderstanding something, I know. 

[Mike Hendren]

My take is simple:  Build any one of these greens in the middle of a field and you've got a golf hole better than 99% of those in America whether the tee is placed 100, 200, 300, 400 or 500 yards away. 

Either you are over-thinking this or I am the simpleton I feared. 

Bogey

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