[Adam Lawrence]

https://twitter.com/ukgolfguy/status/1246379043445968897

[Tom_Doak]

My clients have been dying to take trees down for years around the original 10th and 11th holes (now 7th and 8th for members, and opening holes for the Scottish Open).  With the European Tour in favor and a friendly local government in place, permission was granted.


My input from the beginning has been that clearing the trees would not make the golf holes any better or worse, it's all a matter of aesthetic preference.  I don't really care if someone calls the course a links or not.  It's a great playing surface and you've got to control your ball in the wind and once it lands.  That's the essence of golf to me.


But I don't think my client was as comfortable with the quality of the golf as I am, and they think this will matter.

[Thomas Dai]

Curious to know whether the trees in question, and any others on the course for that matter, were deliberately planted since the course opened (and if so when) or if they self seeded themselves into existence?
Atb

[jeffwarne]

Oh my..
those maintenance paths will no doubt play firmer and faster now.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Personally, I thought the trees added to the feel of the course in this instance, at least in a few places.

[Mark Pearce]

Any chance of returning the fairways to their original width?

[Marty Bonnar]

Personally, I thought the trees added to the feel of the course in this instance, at least in a few places.

I agree Ally. There were some lovely, characterful, gnarly windswept ones which really contributed to the genius loci of Renaissance. I hope they’ve left them!
F.

[Tom_Doak]

Curious to know whether the trees in question, and any others on the course for that matter, were deliberately planted since the course opened (and if so when) or if they self seeded themselves into existence?

They have only planted trees on the interior property lines in a few places where required - and around homes on the inland side of the course.

[Jon Wiggett]

Curious to know whether the trees in question, and any others on the course for that matter, were deliberately planted since the course opened (and if so when) or if they self seeded themselves into existence?
Atb

If it were new growth they could have been removed. If I remember correctly any tree with a diameter of 20cm or less at a height of 3ft can be felled without permission. Also, land owners are allowed to fell 5m3 per quarter so 20m3 a year without permission unless the tree is protected.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks Jon and Tom.
atb

[Niall C]

My clients have been dying to take trees down for years around the original 10th and 11th holes (now 7th and 8th for members, and opening holes for the Scottish Open).  With the European Tour in favor and a friendly local government in place, permission was granted.


My input from the beginning has been that clearing the trees would not make the golf holes any better or worse, it's all a matter of aesthetic preference.  I don't really care if someone calls the course a links or not.  It's a great playing surface and you've got to control your ball in the wind and once it lands.  That's the essence of golf to me.


But I don't think my client was as comfortable with the quality of the golf as I am, and they think this will matter.

I played Renaissance a few weeks ago and had a great time. As usual the hole sequencing seemed to have changed since last time but the round flowed very well. Yes, they have felled quite a few trees on the holes nearest the clubhouse but the boundary tree belts are still there. While I concur with Tom that it doesn't really make a jot of difference to the golf I think what it does illustrate is the minimalist nature of the construction work in that the areas that have been worked blend in very well to the newly revealed surrounds. I say that as a layman and the professionals on here might scoff at that comment but the course has weathered very well and really does look to my eye that it has been around for ages.


It's also a course that grows on you with each subsequent play. I'm not sure you can say that about any of the other Scottish moderns nearly so much. Admittedly I played very well, but even so I think it's very much an under rated course in Scottish terms. If my numbers ever come up I'd happily sign up for a membership and commute through from the west for my regular game.


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

It's also a course that grows on you with each subsequent play. I'm not sure you can say that about any of the other Scottish moderns nearly so much. Admittedly I played very well, but even so I think it's very much an under rated course in Scottish terms. If my numbers ever come up I'd happily sign up for a membership and commute through from the west for my regular game.

Cheers Niall.  Here's hoping that your numbers come up soon !

[Sean_A]

My clients have been dying to take trees down for years around the original 10th and 11th holes (now 7th and 8th for members, and opening holes for the Scottish Open).  With the European Tour in favor and a friendly local government in place, permission was granted.


My input from the beginning has been that clearing the trees would not make the golf holes any better or worse, it's all a matter of aesthetic preference.  I don't really care if someone calls the course a links or not.  It's a great playing surface and you've got to control your ball in the wind and once it lands.  That's the essence of golf to me.


But I don't think my client was as comfortable with the quality of the golf as I am, and they think this will matter.

I played Renaissance a few weeks ago and had a great time. As usual the hole sequencing seemed to have changed since last time but the round flowed very well. Yes, they have felled quite a few trees on the holes nearest the clubhouse but the boundary tree belts are still there. While I concur with Tom that it doesn't really make a jot of difference to the golf I think what it does illustrate is the minimalist nature of the construction work in that the areas that have been worked blend in very well to the newly revealed surrounds. I say that as a layman and the professionals on here might scoff at that comment but the course has weathered very well and really does look to my eye that it has been around for ages.


It's also a course that grows on you with each subsequent play. I'm not sure you can say that about any of the other Scottish moderns nearly so much. Admittedly I played very well, but even so I think it's very much an under rated course in Scottish terms. If my numbers ever come up I'd happily sign up for a membership and commute through from the west for my regular game.


Niall

We were just discussing Renaissance on the phone and I opined that it should be in the conversation for top 10 Scotland. In my book that means Renaissance should be in the conversation for top 25 GB&I. It is perplexing to me why most people don't see it this way.


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

We were just discussing Renaissance on the phone and I opined that it should be in the conversation for top 10 Scotland. In my book that means Renaissance should be in the conversation for top 25 GB&I. It is perplexing to me why most people don't see it this way.

Honestly, I never really expected it to be in that conversation, although getting the holes out on the point gave it some really pretty holes the original course lacked.


I think the course just doesn't pander to any particular audience that might stump for it in the top 25.  It's


(a) "not linksy enough" for some, and I do not mind that critique in a place where there are so many more links courses -- but it IS a links


(b)  not sexy enough for others, because we didn't create a bunch of faux dunes and flashy bunkers


(c)  too hard for the people who might otherwise appreciate the fun side of the holes -- setting it up for the tournament has turned them off, and


(d)  still not hard enough for the best players in the world!




On the other hand, I got the last one covered with our work at Memorial Park, but nobody has nominated it as a top 25 course, because it doesn't have the first two pieces at all.  I think the moral of the story is that if you're trying to build a course for a tournament, you are going against some of the things that might get it highly ranked.  That's odd, because historically it was the other way around.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Surprised to hear removing trees will have no effect on playing conditions.  I thought removing trees always improved grass growth - more air and light.  No?

[Adam Lawrence]

   Surprised to hear removing trees will have no effect on playing conditions.  I thought removing trees always improved grass growth - more air and light.  No?

There weren't any trees close enough to the line of play to affect the playing conditions.

[Sean_A]

   Surprised to hear removing trees will have no effect on playing conditions.  I thought removing trees always improved grass growth - more air and light.  No?

There weren't any trees close enough to the line of play to affect the playing conditions.

The only trees I recall whose removal might improve playing conditions and would certainly improve playability were on the par 5 after the short par 3 off the rear of the house. Almost all of the other trees added to the pleasure of the round.

Ciao

[David Jones]

We were just discussing Renaissance on the phone and I opined that it should be in the conversation for top 10 Scotland. In my book that means Renaissance should be in the conversation for top 25 GB&I. It is perplexing to me why most people don't see it this way.

Honestly, I never really expected it to be in that conversation, although getting the holes out on the point gave it some really pretty holes the original course lacked.


I think the course just doesn't pander to any particular audience that might stump for it in the top 25.  It's


(a) "not linksy enough" for some, and I do not mind that critique in a place where there are so many more links courses -- but it IS a links


(b)  not sexy enough for others, because we didn't create a bunch of faux dunes and flashy bunkers


(c)  too hard for the people who might otherwise appreciate the fun side of the holes -- setting it up for the tournament has turned them off, and


(d)  still not hard enough for the best players in the world!




On the other hand, I got the last one covered with our work at Memorial Park, but nobody has nominated it as a top 25 course, because it doesn't have the first two pieces at all.  I think the moral of the story is that if you're trying to build a course for a tournament, you are going against some of the things that might get it highly ranked.  That's odd, because historically it was the other way around.

I think I am a victim of your third point Tom. On the two occasions I played it I felt that it was just too long for me to get the 'fun' factor because at the time I was probably a 14/15 handicapper struggling off tee. I think on the second play there was only one set of tees down as well that came in close to 6,800 yards. I tend to find I suffer above 6,500...


I was playing (elsewhere) with a Renaissance member last week who was saying that he felt this was a general occurrence and  as a result for the more 'average' player the fun factor could be impacted. Basically what you're saying.


As for your point 4, there is not a course in Scotland that would have challenged the pros in the 2019 conditions. It will be interesting to see where the 2021 Scottish Open is held.


Anyway, thanks to the World Handicap System I'm now (no doubt for a brief period) a single figure golfer and I'm going to get another outing there soon. I'm looking forward to it and will report back on whether the tree work impacts my pleasure one way or the other!

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

https://twitter.com/ukgolfguy/status/1246379043445968897

Some interesting remarks on that Twitter feed. What's the history with the trees? I assume they are not native to that area of land.


I get the feeling some of the negativity is due to privacy/lack of access to play at Renaissance Club.


In one of the tweets Greg Allen (RTE Sport) mentions Formby. The trees at Formby were planted according to the Formby Centenary Book. I think links land is so wonderful and natural, so I really hate to see trees growing in between rolling dunes. Same with Noordwijk where 3-4 holes are suffocated by trees.


Portmarnock has some nice spots with a few trees, but it's a bit overdone in other areas, such as the 4th.

[Tom_Doak]

https://twitter.com/ukgolfguy/status/1246379043445968897

Some interesting remarks on that Twitter feed. What's the history with the trees? I assume they are not native to that area of land.


I get the feeling some of the negativity is due to privacy/lack of access to play at Renaissance Club.

Yes, ukgolfguy is doing no one any favors by bringing it up on Twitter.  It's a bad look even though it was approved by the local council.


Some of the trees [the pines on the more interior holes] were planted for commercial reasons.  The others were just volunteer European beech that had grown up over the past 50 years or so.  Somewhere in "Archerfield wood" there was a golf course back in the 1800's and early 1900's, but I have never been able to figure out whether it was on the Renaissance property or over at what's now Archerfield estates.

[Marty Bonnar]

Some of the trees [the pines on the more interior holes] were planted for commercial reasons.  The others were just volunteer European beech that had grown up over the past 50 years or so.  Somewhere in "Archerfield wood" there was a golf course back in the 1800's and early 1900's, but I have never been able to figure out whether it was on the Renaissance property or over at what's now Archerfield estates.

Here’s the first mapped mention (1906) of a ‘golf course’ on the North Links Rabbit Warren!!!:


https://maps.nls.uk/view/75631965


Cheers,
F.

[Tom_Doak]

Here’s the first mapped mention (1906) of a ‘golf course’ on the North Links Rabbit Warren!!!:


https://maps.nls.uk/view/75631965


Cheers,
F.

Thanks, Marty.


That shows the old Archerfield course on what's now the new Archerfield Links -- the course that's mostly in the trees over there, actually.


Meanwhile the front nine at The Renaissance Club is mostly within what was then "Broad Wood" on the map.  The circular field in the middle of the wood was still there when we started on the course -- I think it is where the 5th & 18th fairways are today, but it might be the opening holes instead; there was a second clearing done sometime before we started.

[David Jones]

https://twitter.com/ukgolfguy/status/1246379043445968897

Some interesting remarks on that Twitter feed. What's the history with the trees? I assume they are not native to that area of land.


I get the feeling some of the negativity is due to privacy/lack of access to play at Renaissance Club.

Yes, ukgolfguy is doing no one any favors by bringing it up on Twitter.  It's a bad look even though it was approved by the local council.


Some of the trees [the pines on the more interior holes] were planted for commercial reasons.  The others were just volunteer European beech that had grown up over the past 50 years or so.  Somewhere in "Archerfield wood" there was a golf course back in the 1800's and early 1900's, but I have never been able to figure out whether it was on the Renaissance property or over at what's now Archerfield estates.

I posted on an early days of lockdown walk back in April.


On the broader point of how Renaissance is viewed locally, I think that there isn’t much bad feeling at all. I spend a fair amount of time in the local hostelries and you don’t hear anything negative about the club and they have a fair few caddies employed which is good.


The local restaurants and pubs really rely on the golf tourism and while Renaissance is high-end it is playable for guests. That means it’s another reason for people to stay locally rather than just pass through.


We have suffered with a lack of really good accommodation in volume and the Macdonald hotel in North Berwick is being done up by the same people who are doing the Russacks in St Andrew’s. that will really help too.


Anyway, back to tree-gate. They definitely won’t effect anything but the aesthetics of the course.

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