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John Emerson

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Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« on: April 03, 2020, 12:13:56 PM »
So I found this book rummaging through an antique store and what a surprise! The cherry on the cake was full blown, fold out, brightly colored, course drawing/routing maps!  All prepared by RTJ.  All in great shape except for the fold down the middle.  Maps are from TOC, Merion, Dorado Beach, PVGC, Philly Cricket, Pinehurst 2, Pebble, ANGC, oakland hills, Firestone, and Bellerive.  Question..Would it be an abomination to tear out the maps and frame them?  They are quite beautiful imo.


This is the first I’ve heard of this book and it is an original from 1966. 
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Anthony Gholz

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2020, 08:29:51 PM »
John:


You've run across one of a couple reprints of Herbert Warren Wind's original The Complete Golfer from 1954.  If you're going to rip out anything I'd get a second copy of Wind's original (because all gcaers should have one clean original) and then carefully dismantle the binding until the drawings drop out.  I've got several of these because I'm a bit anal, but the original has the best color and clarity.  Don't settle for second best.


Anthony
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John Emerson

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2020, 06:21:21 PM »
Thanks Anthony!  Yeah I wasn’t aware of this book until recently.  Good idea, I’ll look into it👍🏻
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2020, 01:37:34 PM »
I just received my copy today. It lists the ten "great courses." It is amazing how our tastes have changed in recent years.

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St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Anthony Gholz

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2020, 02:56:15 PM »
Tommy:


But what a great ten!  Actually eight: Pinehurst, Oakland Hills, Augusta, TOC, Merion, Pine Valley, Pebble, The National. Trent was very cosmopolitan.  I would say our taste hasn't changed that much.  He picked eight courses in 1954 (or earlier depending on publishing deadlines) that would still make everyone's Top 100, if not top ten. 


In Michigan we can't wait to see Mr. Hanse's redo of the Oakland Hills bunkering: definitely back to the Ross look pre Jones.  The Hanse MP drawing looks remarkably close to Ross's last MP drawing for the South course with the exception of the back tees.  BTW the trees necessary for allowing Ross's bunkers back in already came down last fall.


Anthony



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John Emerson

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2020, 07:50:59 PM »
Tommy would you mind posting a pic of the map inserts?  I’m curious if they differ
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“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2020, 11:07:23 PM »
Quote from: John Emerson on April 14, 2020, 07:50:59 PM
Tommy would you mind posting a pic of the map inserts?  I’m curious if they differ
Sure, I'll post them on Wednesday.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2020, 11:22:24 PM »
Quote from: Anthony Gholz on April 14, 2020, 02:56:15 PM
Tommy:


But what a great ten!  Actually eight: Pinehurst, Oakland Hills, Augusta, TOC, Merion, Pine Valley, Pebble, The National. Trent was very cosmopolitan.  I would say our taste hasn't changed that much.  He picked eight courses in 1954 (or earlier depending on publishing deadlines) that would still make everyone's Top 100, if not top ten. 


Anthony


The ten listed "Ten Great Courses" are TOC, Pine Valley, Merion, Dorado Beach, Pinehurst #2, Pebble Beach, Augusta National, Oakland Hills, Firestone, Bellerive. NGLA is not among them. I would be hard pressed to find many that would include Firestone, Dorado, or Bellerive in that august company of the world's best. I doubt many would include Oakland Hills either.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 02:02:57 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Anthony Gholz

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2020, 01:12:30 PM »
Tommy:


You're looking at a later edition not the 1954 original.  Dorado, Firestone and Bellerive are all added RTJ courses.  I agree you wouldn't include them in Top whatever. 


I'm a Detroit homer so I keep Oakland Hills on a pedestal.  For Detroit area golfers the South is our only claim to a major pro tournament.  If they don't get one, Detroit doesn't get one.  So I'm hopeful with the Hanse tree removals and bunker revisions OH will be back in the rota.  BTW part of the plan, still being debated, is a restoration of the original straight away 7th green which would return the course to an all original Ross routing thru 1948.


Bottom line: if you stick with the first edition of Wind's book I'll stick with Top 10 (or Top 100) for all eight.
Anthony
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2020, 05:26:53 PM »
Quote from: Tommy Williamsen on April 14, 2020, 11:07:23 PM
Quote from: John Emerson on April 14, 2020, 07:50:59 PM
Tommy would you mind posting a pic of the map inserts?  I’m curious if they differ
Sure, I'll post them on Wednesday.


For some reason I can't upload the pictures to Photobucket today. It isn't working.
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2020, 01:09:02 PM »
As promised I'll post RTJ's renderings of his pick for "top ten courses."
Up first The Old Course.


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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2020, 01:14:03 PM »
Pine Valley.


« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 01:33:38 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2020, 01:18:22 PM »
Merion. This one is difficult for me to see because I envision the routing from the vantage point of the clubhouse looking down the first hole.







« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 01:46:16 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2020, 01:31:00 PM »
Dorado Beach. I know next to nothing about this course


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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2020, 02:05:05 PM »
Pinehurst #2





Different angle


« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 02:10:49 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2020, 03:09:05 PM »
Pebble Beach


« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 03:12:08 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2020, 03:18:23 PM »
Augusta National


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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2020, 03:45:33 PM »
Oakland Hills

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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2020, 03:49:27 PM »
Firestone
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2020, 03:51:08 PM »
Bellerive


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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Emerson

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2020, 06:43:42 PM »
Thanks Tommy.  It looks just like the ines i have.
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Anthony Gholz

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Re: Golf-It’s history, People & Events
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2020, 09:10:59 PM »
John/Tommy:


Yes, those you just posted are from a much later printing and don't have the quality of color or detail of the originals.  They are in fact not the original drawings in many (if not all cases).  I think RTJ saw a chance for some publicity and redrew the drawings for his own use.  For instance, the "original" Old Course drawing in Wind's book, which I'm looking at as I write this, was Alister MacKenzie's signed original drawing dated March 1924.  You don't see that or the level mod detail on this copy.  I'm sure you can find that MacKenzie's drawing has been posted somewhere else on this site.  I'm sorry, I used to be able to post photos, but not since they started charging $. 


As I compare the other drawings side by side, they are also redrawn and reformatted from the originals.  Meaning the titles are also changed and the area of the course as well.  ie the original ANGC drawing shows the full extent of Magnolia Lane out to Washington Blvd and west to bergman's Rd.


Bottom line John, I stick with my original assessment that if you want to frame the drawings please get an original Wind book and use that.  You won't be sorry.


Anthony
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