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Cory Lewis

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New Long Island Course?
« on: November 01, 2003, 11:06:09 AM »
I played NGLA yesterday and was told that there was going to be a new course built next to it that had some really good ocean front property.  The person I talked to thought it was going to be a Tom Doak but Creenshaw/Coore was mentioned at one point.  Can anyone confirm or deny this?
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hp@hc

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2003, 11:25:35 AM »
Friar's Head is a new C&C course that just opened this summer, and is located in Baiting Hollow, which is on the North shore of LI, about 30 minutes East of Shinnecock and NGLA.  This is probably the one you are talking about - it overlooks LI Sound, and is just spectacular.

Cory Lewis

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Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2003, 11:28:33 AM »
No, not Friars.  The guy I talked to was pretty sure it was going to be literally right next to NGLA.  Modeled after Friar's in it's membership though,  extremelly private.  
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Tom_Doak

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Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2003, 11:40:21 AM »
It's the Bayberry property you are talking about, about 250 acres which continues along the bluff past the 18th green at National.  The owner has just filed his site plan for approval by the town of Southampton.

The announcement of the designer will be made after the site plan is approved.  I did submit a proposed routing plan for the course, and Jack Nicklaus' company has also done routings; possibly others as well, but not Bill and Ben.

Trust me, you'll hear about it when there is an official decision.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2003, 11:52:28 AM »
Came103,

You're correct.

The intended golf course property is adjacent to NGLA on the Bayberry Property.

With Friar's Head a short hop away, I doubt that Coore & Crenshaw would accept a design commission for this property.

In light of Pacific Dunes, this would seem to be an ideal property and opportunity for Tom Doak to design a golf course comparable to the neighboring golf courses on the eastern end of Long Island.

If I were the owner, I would want to create a golf course for the AGES, one that could stand side by side with NGLA and be proud, not embarrassed by the comparison.

It will take an extraordinary design effort to achieve that goal and I think Tom Doak is capable of that effort, IF he takes his time and doesn't have his focus diverted by other projects.

Time will tell, and I wish the owner the best of luck with this potentially spectacular project.


HamiltonBHearst

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2003, 12:16:16 PM »

Pat-Do you know something we don't about the project.  If the property is good enough why wouldn't C&C take a shot at it?

Clearly, Rees Jones built two wonderful courses very near to each other in Bridgehampton.  I do not think he was worried about matching his success at Atlantic.

Who is left to join these clubs at with six figure  tariffs?  Have Easthampton,Bridge,FH,Atlantic been getting members from the three older and highly respected courses on the east end?  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2003, 01:34:44 PM »
Hamilton B Hearst,

I know very little.

I do know that there has been a great deal of criticism directed at Nicklaus for designing a golf course adjacent to The Bear's Club.  And, that a number of members resented his dilution of their product, a product they had paid substantial dollars to join.

I also understand that Fazio entered into an exclusive arrangement with Steve Wynn relative to Shadow Creek, agreeing not to design another golf course in the greater Las Vegas area.

I would think, that with Friar's Head officially opening this year, that C&C would not entertain the design commission.

You know the dates better then I do, but didn't The Bridge come about 10 years after Atlantic, well after Atlantic's membership rolls were at capacity ?  Hence, there was no competitive distraction or competition.

I don't know that FH's membership rolls are at capacity, and I would think that C&C designing a nearby course would be counterproductive to FH's efforts.  And, out of courtesy, respect and prudence, C&C would not seek the job.
I also get the feeling, and it's strictly a feeling, that they don't want their designs clustered near one another, that there selection process takes in site and location specifics.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

larry_munger

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2003, 02:37:48 PM »
Maybe those rumors a couple of weeks ago were not that far off! Doak submits rounting plan for Bayberry. The east end could only be so lucky. I wonder how good the land really is?

Joel_Stewart

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Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2003, 03:40:34 PM »
Hamilton B Hearst,
I also understand that Fazio entered into an exclusive arrangement with Steve Wynn relative to Shadow Creek, agreeing not to design another golf course in the greater Las Vegas area.
Pat:
This was always a rumor but is not true.  I know a Vice-Chairman at MGM-Mirage and he looked into it and even Fazio denied it.  As you know, Fazio is now building a new course at the new Wynn Resort (previously the Desert Inn) in Las Vegas and last year MGM-Mirage signed a contract with Fazio for a second course at Shadow Creek.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2003, 04:24:40 PM »
Joel Stewart,

When Arthur Goldberg wanted to build a course for Hilton,
to rival Shadow Creek, I was told by Arthur that Fazio was off limits, due to an agreement with With Wynn.

When Wynn left MGM-Mirage, Fazio was free to build for others, and now he's building for Wynn, again.

Many executives weren't around 17 to 14 years ago when Wynn started and completed his dream, especially executives at MGM.

Happy Gilmore

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2003, 05:43:54 PM »
Larry,
   The Bayberry land is exceptional and actually has much more water frontage than NGLA.

All,

     I had the good fortune to talk to a family member of the owner and heard the skinny about the possibility of the shift from JN to Tom Doak. As was accurately mentioned here in GCA, the present membership at the Bears Club stand a bit miffed with Nicklaus for his ubiquious course design nearby theirs. The owner of the Bayberry project was one of the Bear Club's founders and financial backers of the deal. He was intending to go with JN for Bayberry but is DEFINITELY having second thoughts and has asked Tom to submit some plans.
   As for C & C, as others here properly allude, they just feel they are too saturated in the area and aren't the types to cause any of their projects any possible dilution. Aslo, they did just land the other great remaining property/deal out on the other coast.
   The rumored price tag for Bayberry is near $500k (up there with the Bridge). My guess is they seriously dent only the Bridge's membership. Right now, the Bridge is seeing mostly prospective members from a pool of those unwilling to drive to or unlikely to get into FH. Atlantic is near closed with very few new members getting in theses days. I'm not sure places like FH, Atlantic and Easthampton are being populated any further with members of the older Eastern LI clubs...different styles and folks.

Net, Net...Bayberry has the chance and promise of being something spectacular and like Pat said, complimentary to the greatness of its neighbors. If they have the guts to give it to Tom, they'll have that chance. If not, IMHO, they'll have absolutely no chance...just another high fade venue for the egotistic.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2003, 06:05:58 PM »
I don't understand why the members at the Bear's Club would be miffed that Nicklaus designed another course right next door. What is there to be miffed about?????
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Happy Gilmore

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2003, 06:12:18 PM »
Quassi,

  Played today with your buddy Eli. He says "small world." Bears Club guys thought they had the only Nicklaus design within driving distance and feel he hasn't done enough to make the club a Championship destination. Go figure, but for the price they paid, they don't want another high-end RE community golf course. ::)

Andy Silis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2003, 06:43:11 PM »
Thanks to "Happy Gilmore" for confirming ( After Tom Doak's reply ) what I originally wrote about. I'm a long time GCA fan and lurker but rarely post as my job and family take up almost all my time. (I'm in the golf business and travel about 150 days out of the year ) I felt that my "news" was legitimate and came from a highly reliable source and would be of significant interest to this group. I also made sure to note that it was unconfirmed as fact. One of the reasons ( in addition to the architectural knowledge gained ) I ( and I'm sure many others ) log on regularly is to hear about projects and goings on in the world of golf course architecture ahead of mainstream publication announcement and release. I would hope that this sort of "information heard" will continue to be a part of GCA in the future!------The GCA "Family" is THE BEST!!!!!!!!!

Regards,
                 Andy Silis


TEPaul

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2003, 09:17:40 AM »
I agree with Andy--who really cares if so-called "rumor" or "word behind the scenes" is reported and discussed on Golfclubatlas.com? It's just that--rumor and "word behind the scenes". I don't know that contributors to Golfclubatlas.com are supposed to or should have to live and write by the same expectations as others expect and demand of professional reporters who must or are strongly encouraged to check their sources for accuracy and fact before reporting. Golfclubatlas.com is just a unique golf course architecture discussion group on the world wide Internet, for God Sake--and that's a long way from a newspaper or some other professional publication!

If contributors on here are right about what they report, then they're right--if they're wrong, then they're wrong---who cares? Nobody on here is about to get in hot water or fired for whatever they report and discuss on here that I'm aware of.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2003, 09:20:32 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2003, 10:13:30 AM »
Frankly, to take this even farther and hopefully stir even more controversy, I'd recommend that if it is Tom Doak who ends up getting the project to design the course at Bayberry that Tom go into it with a bit of a "theme" much like Macdonald went into NGLA with a bit of a "theme" of somewhat emulating European holes and emulating little bits and pieces and nuances of European holes in concept or actually.

I'd recommend that Tom Doak make his "theme" at Bayberry that he'll design and produce holes that are wholly original to the land over there, holes that're wholly "site specific" and not in the slightest bit "template", "copies" of anything anywhere or even so-called "concept copies".

Furthermore, I'd recommend that Tom Doak (if he gets the project) guard the pre-construction topos with his life--don't let anyone without a strict construction "need to know" see those preconstruction topo contour lines and then blend those holes into that land so naturally that nobody ever will know what happened--what came before or after or what once was.

I'll even volunteer to get into the township or county offices following construction and steal all their preconstruction topos "Watergate" style so there won't be any evidence in the future.

TomD, this will be your ultimate chance to show that imaginationless copycat design slacker, C.B Macdonald, for just what he was! And also your chance to show that engineering oriented Seth Raynor to be just what he was, an engineer who never knew how to meld his architectural engineering into nature--or even worse yet, didn't care to!

This is even your chance to go your own architectural hero, Alexander Mackenzie, one step better and take his own fascinating concept on "camouflage" in golf architecture to the nth degree so nobody will ever know what was your hand and what was God's.

This is your chance to outshine the great NGLA 95 years later and show us all what those old guys were dreaming about if they had the facility and the mechanized resource! And best yet right juxtaposed to NLGA! Go one step more and take the trees down over there at Bayberry so everyone will be able to see your course from NGLA and vice versa!

With Alexander's nth degree golf architecture "camouflage" application at Bayberry if anyone ever wants to take pot shots at you in the future, just like the Boers and their naturalized trenches to the British they'll never be able to figure out where you are or where your architecture begins or ends.

This is your opportunity to solve this on-going unsolvable mystery of how the engineering look of NGLA blends so well into nature, what once was natural grade etc, etc. This is your opportunity to prove that it doesn't! This is your opportunity to "camouflage" every single nuance of your architectural engineering!

This is your best opportunity to put that copycat curmudgeon Macdonald and his pencil wielding, dirt volume calculator, Seth Raynor, to shame once and for all! And best of all you can do all this right on their very western doorstep!!     ;)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2003, 10:15:18 AM by TEPaul »

Gary_Smith

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2003, 10:59:16 AM »
TEPaul,

Have you considered a career as a motivational speaker?  :)

TEPaul

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2003, 11:08:13 AM »
Gary:

Yes indeed, I sure have considered it but on further reflection came to the conclusion that I need motivation!   ;)

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2003, 03:31:53 PM »
Gossip:

Everyone likes gossip, but sometimes people get hurt by stuff that is untrue. I just suggest that we tread lightly in this regard.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mike_Sweeney

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2003, 03:46:28 PM »
Go one step more and take the trees down over there at Bayberry so everyone will be able to see your course from NGLA and vice versa!

Tom Paul,

Well if there is one thing I am pretty darn sure about this site, it is that all of those trees are not coming down in the Town of Southampton.

TEPaul

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2003, 04:04:19 PM »
MikeS:

Well, you're probably absolutely right about that. If Doak gets that project he'll probably find a bunch of rich environmental princesses chained to every tree out there!!

You see how it goes these days?! It'll be hard enough for Doak to go up against the great historic NGLA's architecture in what he may get to do at Bayberry and these rich enviromental types won't even let him compete against C.B. Macdonald on a level playing field!

If it was C.B. building in this atmosphere he'd probably punch out a number of environmental types and township people too or just cut down the trees first and find out what the consequences are later.

How about Shinnecock? They cut down a ton of trees recently and nobody that I know of jumped on them! But you don't have to answer that as I'm completely aware that Shinnecock did not have to go through the permitting process--Flynn did that about 75 years ago and he actually proposed planting a bunch of trees out there! But from the look of the evolution of the course into the 1930s I think he just said he would and then basically never did it!  ;)

upnorthpro

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2003, 04:10:29 PM »
I would like to know specifically what Patrick Mucci refers to as Tom Doak "taking his time" AND "focusing" on this project.  Since Mr. Doak didn't answer, perhaps Mr. Mucci would care to embelish us with some more of his never-ending wisdom.  

Mike_Sweeney

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2003, 04:17:26 PM »

How about Shinnecock? They cut down a ton of trees recently and nobody that I know of jumped on them!

Tom,

Historically that has been the Shinnecock Indians that jumps on Shinnecock Hills Golf Club. They filed a lawsuit a few years ago against the club in reference to taking their tribal lands. Thus, now that you have alerted the public about the tree cutting, we know who to blame if the US Open is cancelled next year !! ;)

HamiltonBHearst

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2003, 08:26:10 PM »


Mr. Mucci makes wonderful contributions to this site so I do not understand the hostile reaction from someone not posting under his own name.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:New Long Island Course?
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2003, 06:06:41 AM »
upnorthpro,

Had you posted under your own name, I would have addressed the question.

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