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Thomas Dai

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Fortification greens
« on: March 31, 2020, 05:06:33 AM »
Green or green complexes on courses a century or more ago were sometimes described as fortifications and words like battlements and parapets were occasionally used too.

What in particular has happened within the game to alter the perception that greens should be 'protected' or 'defended' in the kind of way such terms describe?
Changes in general architectural philosophy, construction techniques, equipment, maintenance, the rules, the desire for 'fairness', etc etc.

Are there any particular greens or green complexes built in the last few decades that could reasonably be described using terms like fortification, battlement, parapet etc?

Thoughts.

atb

Kyle Harris

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2020, 06:44:02 AM »
Thomas,


How much of these description were the result of green complexes resembling such earthworks like redoubts and redans, among others?


So you have pushed-up greens with steep edges on all sites that resemble on small-scale famous fortifications like Chapultepec, Hougoumont, and whatever it was they attacked during the Boer Wars.
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archie_struthers

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2020, 08:04:57 AM »
 ;D


I haven't seen any modern ones that fit the description. However the most amazing one I know of was the 11th hole at the CC of Charleston. To this day I have never seen a par three scare the best players more than this one.


Played it in the Azalea Invitational back in 1981 and it was quite amazing, Sam Snead once made 13 there in a tournament and Ben Hogan said that the CC had 17 good holes. 175 yards of stark terror.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 08:09:01 AM by archie_struthers »

Tim Martin

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2020, 09:01:35 AM »
;D


I haven't seen any modern ones that fit the description. However the most amazing one I know of was the 11th hole at the CC of Charleston. To this day I have never seen a par three scare the best players more than this one.


Played it in the Azalea Invitational back in 1981 and it was quite amazing, Sam Snead once made 13 there in a tournament and Ben Hogan said that the CC had 17 good holes. 175 yards of stark terror.


Archie-Despite seeing plenty of pictures it was a holy shit moment when I played the hole. Can’t imagine seeing it for the first time in a stroke play tournament. :o

David_Tepper

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2020, 09:13:54 AM »
Aren't certain green complexes known as Spion Kop?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spion_Kop_(mountain)

There was a thread here about this a number of years ago.


Here it is, from 2009:

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32747.0.html
 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 09:15:29 AM by David_Tepper »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2020, 11:23:34 AM »
I'm sure I have played a few courses around the world where *actual* battlements from old wars are in play on golf courses.  The only one I can think of right now is Cape Fear in NC . . . and Royal Portrush with its "War Hollow" but I don't remember any terrain features that had to do with the battle.


I would say that Mike Strantz's and Jim Engh's work come the closest to "fortification" greens because of their fondness for exaggerated features.  A green like the 18th at Old Macdonald might qualify, too.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2020, 11:42:42 AM »
Tom,

Interestingly enough, the first green that came to mind was the little short par 3 you did at Barnbougle Dunes with deep bunkers and a small surface.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2020, 12:46:29 PM »
Maybe it’s because of the rudamentary nature of the equipment of the time, the clothing, the rustic nature of courses and the more basic rules of the game but somehow golf in time’s long gone by seems to be more a challenge than today.


The plotting like a military campaign of the best way through the countryside taking the fairest way, avoiding awkward, rough and hazardous terrain and outpost forts until the rampart like fortifications of the citadel is reached, scaled and ultimately conquered hopefully with sufficient strength remaining and enough ammunition still available for use to conquer numerous further citadels.


Seems like there used to be an element of the above in golf, an element that’s declined over the decades and doesn’t really exist much anymore.


Why has this military campaign type golf disappeared? Would it be nice if it were more prevalent?


And it doesn’t need to be over long distances either. Short cunning par-3’s. Par-4’s and par-5’s with deadly, fortified greens.


Even death or glory greens where even a mid-length hole might be best played in certain circumstances with a thoughtful lay-up and an accurate approach shot.


The various points made above and the examples of the short reverse Redan at The Country Club of Charleston, where I’ve read a lay-up is often the best tee shot, and Toms Little Devil at Barnbougle both mentioned above get near the heart of what I’m aiming at, although they’re par-3’s. I only know from a distance a little of the work of Mike Strantz and not much about Jim Engh, so I’ll do some research. What are other examples, especially others that have been built in the last few decades?


Has golf got scared?


Atb


PS - no points if you nominate holes from the somewhat different course at Bluegreen Dunkerque - https://www.bluegreen.fr/dunkerque/




MCirba

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2020, 01:28:47 PM »
Does this one qualify?   We affectionately refer to it as "The Tie-Fighter".   

Sadly a neutered shell of its former self these days, we still hope someday to restore it to it's odd and distinctive glory.

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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2020, 01:46:23 PM »
I'm sure I have played a few courses around the world where *actual* battlements from old wars are in play on golf courses.  The only one I can think of right now is Cape Fear in NC . . . and Royal Portrush with its "War Hollow" but I don't remember any terrain features that had to do with the battle.




I believe Painswick would also fit the bill Tom.


Close to me there is Muir of Ord which is a Braid course set mainly on heathland which has a hole with the green set on a mound built for a castle. Its a real all or nothing shot.


Jon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2020, 01:54:49 PM »
I'm sure I have played a few courses around the world where *actual* battlements from old wars are in play on golf courses.  The only one I can think of right now is Cape Fear in NC . . . and Royal Portrush with its "War Hollow" but I don't remember any terrain features that had to do with the battle.



I believe Painswick would also fit the bill Tom.


Close to me there is Muir of Ord which is a Braid course set mainly on heathland which has a hole with the green set on a mound built for a castle. Its a real all or nothing shot.



Jon:


Yes, I should have remembered Painswick.  And I played another course over there with Iron Age fortress remnants -- was that at Cleeve Cloud?


I still haven't been to Muir of Ord.  When I got back from my year in the UK and started showing Mr. and Mrs. Dye pictures of all the little courses I'd discovered, Pete said, "Yeah, but I bet you didn't go to Muir of Ord."  He and Alice played there, on their way to Dornoch in 1963.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2020, 02:03:04 PM »
Would a volcano green like 11 at Musgrove Mill qualify?


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Peter Pallotta

Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2020, 02:04:41 PM »
interesting, Thomas: i.e. that, as you say, they were 'described' that way suggests that, at the very least, they were intended (and expected) to 'play' that way. I suppose golfers 'kept score' differently way back then, literally and figuratively. 

Josh Bills

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2020, 02:06:47 PM »
PB Dye did a nice version of that type of hole at Urbana CC in 1992 and it is still a great hole.  I understand this year it was altered as the front of the green did not accept shots as well as previously and often, when dried out, you could putt off the front.  An enjoyable hole. 


View from tee



View from Left Side of Green



View from Right Side of Green



View from Behind Green

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2020, 02:11:29 PM »
Josh:


P.B. built a hole something like that, but maybe more severe, on his Moorland course at The Legends.  I think it is the 11th -- a very short par-5.  If you go for it in two and miss, you could be playing ping pong across and back for a while.

MCirba

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2020, 02:32:28 PM »
Josh:


P.B. built a hole something like that, but maybe more severe, on his Moorland course at The Legends.  I think it is the 11th -- a very short par-5.  If you go for it in two and miss, you could be playing ping pong across and back for a while.

Tom,


Call me masochistic but I really enjoyed Moorland as a one-off from traditional MB fare and a nice complement to your Heathland course.


Parkland, despite some cool stuff along the way is neither fish nor fowl.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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Pete_Pittock

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2020, 02:34:57 PM »
The first two that I encountered were in May 1975.  The Pit hole (13) at North Berwick West and the 5th (Het Girdle [hot griddle] at Gleneagles -King.  Painswick's are the personification.

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2020, 02:53:42 PM »
The 14th green at Cedar Rapids certainly qualifies as a fortification green - steep drop off on all sides and siting about 10-12 feet above the fairway level.


Tyler

Kalen Braley

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2020, 02:59:27 PM »
I can't seem to find it, but I thought one of the Big Breaks played at a course with old fort ruins in play. It could have been a one-off skills competition thou...

MCirba

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2020, 03:07:22 PM »
Port Royal in Bermuda has old military fortifications along the 15th fairway, IIRC.


Lee's Hill in VA has Civil War entrenchments along a few holes.


Tom previously mentioned Cape Fear CC which has Civil War remnants on 8 & 9 (and possibly elsewhere).


Tangentially related, at Cobb's Creek GC an abolitionist Inn owner on the "Underground Railroad" nearby on Chester Pike had a tunnel leading from his basement that led directly to the creek along the 5th hole where slaves would escape during visits by southern slaveowners by entering the creek and then walking northward along it for a mile or so such that the hunting dogs would lose the scent.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 03:09:11 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2020, 05:11:42 PM »
I'm sure I have played a few courses around the world where *actual* battlements from old wars are in play on golf courses.  The only one I can think of right now is Cape Fear in NC . . . and Royal Portrush with its "War Hollow" but I don't remember any terrain features that had to do with the battle.
I haven't played there, but I believe that is the case with the Niagara On The Lake Golf Club which is supposed to be North America's oldest course, dating to 1895.  It was built on the old grounds of Fort Mississauga

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2020, 05:25:41 PM »
I'm sure I have played a few courses around the world where *actual* battlements from old wars are in play on golf courses.  The only one I can think of right now is Cape Fear in NC . . . and Royal Portrush with its "War Hollow" but I don't remember any terrain features that had to do with the battle.
I haven't played there, but I believe that is the case with the Niagara On The Lake Golf Club which is supposed to be North America's oldest course, dating to 1895.  It was built on the old grounds of Fort Mississauga
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Tim Gavrich

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2020, 08:04:11 PM »
I had a minor epiphany while playing the 12th at Yale once: that the green is defended both against a golf shot, and a hypothetical army of swordsmen charging up the hill, trying to take that square paddock.
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2020, 04:05:40 AM »
I had a minor epiphany while playing the 12th at Yale once: that the green is defended both against a golf shot, and a hypothetical army of swordsmen charging up the hill, trying to take that square paddock.


I've had a similar thought in relation to Painswick.
Biggus Dickus, the famous Roman of Monty Python fame, is fictionally tasked with capturing the hill fort that now houses the 5th etc greens at Painswick GC. He and his army struggle for weeks to climb up to the ridge line from the Severn Valley being harassed by enemy booby trips all the way. When they eventually arrive at the base of the hill fort they rest for a while. Once rested they look up at what's still to come with it's steep levels and parapets, glance at one-another in a resigned manner, say some very rude words and go home!


A couple of other examples from near to Painswick would of course be the fortifications at both Cleeve Cloud and Minchinhampton Old. And there's Offa's Dyke, look it up, that crosses Kington GC.


Royal Malta plays through fort battlements and I think I've seen old b&w photos of an early course in Florida or Georgia.


What about a certain Dr from Leeds and military earthworks? Or the use of sleepers/ties by the Dyes?


Maybe Desmond Muirheads work?


atb




Sean_A

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Re: Fortification greens
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2020, 05:50:31 AM »
I have a lot of time for these sorts of greens and worry for their future. 

Josh's example at Urbana is very fine.  It could be that like blind shots, folks have a hard time accepting these type of greens if they are man made.  The Urbana example is tabletop and effectively blind.  Its the sort of green I can imagine Colt building edge/corner knobs to signal the extent of the putting surface.

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« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 05:53:28 AM by Sean_A »
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