[A.G._Crockett]

Dismanted?  Pretty sure that federal spending has gone from ~$2.7 trillion in 2007 to ~$4.8 trillion in fiscal 2021, before accounting for this week's potential blast.  Including from ~$4.0 to ~4.8 under Trump.  As long as we're going all in on the Twitterization of GCA.

You are conflating Mike Cirba's use of the word "effective" with cost; I know that you don't really believe that those two things necessarily go hand in hand. 

But even if you do believe that, you offer a false choice.  The primary drivers of increased federal spending in the time period that you reference is Social Security and Medicare, along with debt service.  The SS/Medicare thing is largely an illusion, of course, since those are funded thru dedicated taxes, and both are still solvent, contrary to popular belief.  Both show up as line items in the federal budget, without regard to the source of the money.

[Bernie Bell]

Ha!  Didn't know that was his full name.  Poor guy must be "grateful" that attention has shifted to more important matters.  Although the social isolation of our mass self-incarceration is not a good thing for the recovering community.  Among what I fear will be many so-far hidden mental health costs of this pandemic.

[Bernie Bell]

A.G. - I should have resisted the urge to jump in, and I'm not going to debate your point.  This community knows a very great deal about golf course architecture.  Most if not all active participants have forgotten more about GCA than I'll ever know.  This is a GCA site.  In my view, which admittedly may be of scant interest or value, it would be wise to stick to that, as far as possible.  Regardless of one's political and economic philosophies, there are many other places on the web to reinforce, challenge and/or debate those beliefs.  And like this site, the best of those sites have participants who are supremely knowledgable on those topics, which I would respectfully suggest many posters here are not.  Just my .02 as a newbie . . . the site is far better without the politics, especially the politics that are not even remotely tied to the subject (e.g., "course restrictions due to Coronavirus"). 

[Colin Macqueen]

Bernie,
When times get tough and not much golf is being played and there is a very serious societal issue breaking over one it is interesting to be given insights into how society is reacting. I said it many years ago, on this site, that the insights I get under these conditions are informative and revealing and as such give me a more holistic view of the "tree-hut" as, I think, it was once described. So once in a while I think it is refreshing to get the thoughts and reflections not of egg-heads, specialists and nerds but of a cross-section of, albeit golf nuts, the community.

Meanwhile my last chance to flee New Zealand and begin 14 days government mandated self isolation at home in Oz arises in 12 hours here in Christchurch where my flight leaves. If I arrive, in Oz, after midnight on the 28th. I will be escorted, with compatriots no doubt, by the military or police to hotels in the city of arrival.There I will begin my isolation under "guard"! Why? Because 44 people arriving from overseas, in amongst hundreds no doubt, were not at home upon visits by the authorities after self proclaimed self isolation ..... or were not to be found at all as they had given false addresses!! Now there is an insight into Australian society which beggars belief and which I would never have thought would occur in Oz. But there you go human nature eh?

Australia and New Zealand have taken this mitigation aspect of containment very seriously and yes we are islands so quite a bit easier than for the U.S.A. no doubt but leadership whether we like the dictate or not has been on show.
Cheers Col

[John Kavanaugh]

As odd as this may seem I am on neither twitter or facebook. Partially because so Mike Cirba and I got together for a great day just moments after the election of 2016. For well over a decade I had treated Mike poorly thus giving him literally thousands of non political reasons to not want to go out of his way for a game despite the excellent course where we met. (Swope Memorial in Kansas City.) It saddens me to think that day might have never occurred if I had spent the previous year spoon feeding Mike a dick sundae with a political cherry on top. For the sake of future games and new friends please keep political discussions off this site.

[Lou_Duran]

A.G. - I should have resisted the urge to jump in, and I'm not going to debate your point. 

Hard to argue with NPR and TED, both unimpeachable sources of the "smart", expert class.  I think that what you're doing is known as pissing (or spitting) into the wind.  BTW, can you recall a period in the last 50 years when a Republican leader was not characterized in the media as lowering the national IQ?


John Kavanaugh-


Assuming that your aggressive stand on playing golf during these trying times is not another one of your ruses, you would not be pleased with the members and management of my home course.  The weather has been great after a week of heavy rain and the tee sheet is full.  Because of sensible precautionary practices including a one rider per cart limit, the fleet is pretty much out by noon.  This is having a beneficial impact on walking- I hear that the 10+ ClicGears have been selling out early each morning.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

With the huge stimulus package I would expect a lot of public courses can stay afloat now that the government can subsidize payroll.


However, unless the stock market comes back quickly I wonder for how many private clubs this will be the nail in the coffin? You'd have to think that for a lot of club members living off their retirement portfolio the first thing to go will be the membership. Not to mention a good amount of clubs that make ends meet on F&B, wedding, etc.


I recall a conversation with Michael Wolf where he said when we have our next recession you'll see a majority of 2nd tier clubs close their doors. Have there been any casualties already?

[Peter Flory]

Illinois just reversed itself again.  Golf courses not permitted to open

Guess they can redirect their efforts toward filling out SBA loan paperwork.

It looks like the rules are as follows:
- interest rates have to be <= 4%
- loans to be <= $10MM
- the recipient has to keep their payroll steady (complicated for golf courses with seasonal employment)
- loans can cover payroll, rent, utilities, or existing debt obligations
- If they take the loan and pay those eligible costs through June, thos costs will be forgiven
- should take about 3 weeks from application to get approval

Seems like a no-brainer for golf courses, especially since their shutdown options aren't as good as other businesses- i.e. they could lose the course if they don't maintain it at a certain level. 

And if the orders lift and golf starts up again, their get the revenues, but not incur the costs through June. 


One other benefit from banks is that they just relaxed rules for TDRs.  So the existing bank for a golf course will be more willing to provide temporary relief and they won't worry about having to classify the loan as a restructure in their reporting.

[Jeff Schley]

Illinois just reversed itself again.  Golf courses not permitted to open

Guess they can redirect their efforts toward filling out SBA loan paperwork.

It looks like the rules are as follows:
- interest rates have to be <= 4%
- loans to be <= $10MM
- the recipient has to keep their payroll steady (complicated for golf courses with seasonal employment)
- loans can cover payroll, rent, utilities, or existing debt obligations
- If they take the loan and pay those eligible costs through June, thos costs will be forgiven
- should take about 3 weeks from application to get approval

Seems like a no-brainer for golf courses, especially since their shutdown options aren't as good as other businesses- i.e. they could lose the course if they don't maintain it at a certain level. 

And if the orders lift and golf starts up again, their get the revenues, but not incur the costs through June. 


One other benefit from banks is that they just relaxed rules for TDRs.  So the existing bank for a golf course will be more willing to provide temporary relief and they won't worry about having to classify the loan as a restructure in their reporting.

Peter interesting, although I'm not sure that private clubs that are set up as non-profits (many) 501 (c) 7 entities would qualify for such loans.

[John Kavanaugh]

If your course is lucky enough to take advantage of this relief package do us all a favor and yourself by not talking about it on here. A bailout of a golf course is not the kind of press we need.

[Peter Pallotta]

Colin, my friend
Seeing your name above and knowing of your Scottish roots, reminded me of a favoured passage of mine from an old 19th century Scottish pastor & (fascinating) novelist, George Macdonald. As you'll see, it has nothing much to do with this thread; but as I get outside for fresh air on the now quiet streets, I think/feel of it often (as I sometimes used to do on a golf course)
Best to you during these trying times.   
Peter

Sky and wind and water and birds and trees said to him, "Forget thyself, and we will think of thee. Sing no more to thyself thy foolish songs of decay, and we will sing to thee of love and hope and faith and resurrection."  Earth and air had grown full of hints and sparkles and vital motions, as if between them and his soul an abiding community of fundamental existence had manifested itself.

[MCirba]

That was an awesome day, John Kavanaugh.  I hope we can do it again before too long.


As I type this I have two daughters in upstate NY providing point of care healthcare without sufficient equipment or protection and a wife here sewing masks out of cloth to send them.


It makes me ask wtf happened in the richest, greatest country in the world where we've reached this point after months of knowing this was coming with continual denials and obfuscation such that we're at a juncture where our leader is going on his propaganda network arguing about the exact number of tens of thousands of ventilators needed in NY state while telling folks that we'll be cramming churches just in time for the Easter Bunny.


Rant over.


Be safe, my friends.  Listen to the doctors and scientists.

[Dave Herrick]

There has been a progression of stay at home orders in Colorado. In the Denver area there was first an order related to the City and County of Denver. Then surrounding counties adopted orders which specifically closed all golf courses. Now there is a statewide order, but the verbiage of that order makes no mention of golf courses as places specifically closed. It only says, without mentioning golf, that outdoor activities that would violate the ban’s social distancing requirements are not permitted.
My home club’s tee sheet is sparse tomorrow, with dicey weather, but it is full on Sunday.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I think the US is a country with more freedom than most other democracies (I'm not even going to talk about non-democracies). I've lived in the US for about a year and a half in several places, so this impression is borne out of personal experience. Freedom is great in good times - I remember how I loved it. However, freedom is not a case of "the more, the merrier". Taken to the extreme it is anarchy, which helps no one.

Please let's not discuss the merits of the 2nd amendment, but it's a good example for freedom taken very far and some obvious repercussions from that. The US has accepted those repercussions as the price to pay for freedom. And the Corona virus is the same. China, as a country with little freedom, can deal with this much better and no one will suffer more than the US. It's the price to pay for freedom.

Donald Trump is not thinkable in Germany. We don't have enough freedom for a total outsider to go into politics and achieve the ultimate prize within a year or so. Our leaders are more vetted, but also "more of the same" because of that vetting process. Every coin has two sides.

[Bernie Bell]

Mike,


I am sorry to hear about your daughters' situation, and horrified at the similar news every day.  And I share your WTF reaction.  I will not defend or comment on Trump.  In due time, I am sure there will be after-action reports aplenty to dissect everything that has led us here.  But the current situation is not something months in the making, it is years, and it seems increasingly clear that there have been many errors or wrong assumptions at every level of government, local, state and federal, going back well before Trump, but continuing until very recently (see DeBlasio administration).  The Bill Gates TED talk that was referenced earlier today was from 2015, when Obama was President and Cuomo was NY Governor.  And with specific reference to the State of NY, see below an excerpt from a 2015 report to Governor Cuomo re need to stockpile PPE in NY State for exactly this situation.  Full report (which also noted likely shortage of ventilators) is linked.  Rage at Trump all you want, but please consider widening your target circle.


“In addition to ventilators, facilities should address surge capacity for other important components of the health care system, including staff and medical equipment and supplies.   Staffing issues are critical, because personnel are the most valuable resource in any health care facility. Staff members may become ill, leave work to care for loved ones, or decline to serve from fear of contagion. Alternate levels of staffing (i.e., patients to staff ratio) should be permitted during the pandemic emergency, and systems for extending the skills of available staff must be utilized. Furthermore, the stockpiling of protective personnel equipment, including masks and gloves, is a critical planning responsibility for facilities. Without adequate protective measures, facilities may undermine their capacity to provide adequate staffing during a public health emergency. “

https://www.health.ny.gov/regulations/task_force/reports_publications/docs/ventilator_guidelines.pdf

[Peter Flory]

Peter interesting, although I'm not sure that private clubs that are set up as non-profits (many) 501 (c) 7 entities would qualify for such loans.

It looks like the program does cover non-profits. 

https://www.fastcompany.com/90482750/applying-for-a-small-business-disaster-loan-what-to-know-about-the-covid-19-stimulus-package

Their main goal is obviously to protect jobs and a lot of non-profits employ people- including private golf clubs.  As far as I can tell, the loan amounts will depend on how much in eligible expenses the applicant is scheduled to incur in 2.5 months ending 6/30/20.  The interest doesn't get forgiven, but any amounts actually used to pay those elibilbe expenses is considered to be a grant. 

I'm really surprised that they seem to be shooting for a 24 turnaround from application to funding.

The catch- The applicant must provide a written statement certifying that the group membership policies do not discriminate against any individual on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, handicap, age, or national origin...  i.e. clubs that can still afford to discriminate don't need a bailout. 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Trump is easy pickings, of course, as he's responsible right now. But it is absolutely correct that this situation is decades in the making and only the smallest amount of it is directly traceable to Trump. Obama tried to do something about it, but wasn't very successful. It's going to take more than one president to fix this - perhaps it can't be fixed by politicians at all. Perhaps it needs a dramatic change in voters' mindset and, for starters, a lot more voters!

Ulrich

[Chris Kane]

The Victorian Government ordered "recreational facilities" (which include "a facility used predominantly for outdoor physical recreation") to close from midnight on Wednesday.

From what I can gather most clubs didn't get the message (its in an emergency powers directive), as the media focus was on closure of pubs, hotels, cinemas etc. Golf Australia finally recommended last night (Friday) that clubs close.

Hundreds of courses were operating on Thursday and Friday; hopefully most will have got the message and are closed today. The Government could probably balance their budget with the $100k fines !

[Jason Thurman]

The original question actually continues to be an interesting one...


In Ohio, it appears most or all municipal courses are closed in observance of our state's Stay at Home order. Daily fee publics are still able to operate, and many or most are as far as I can tell although there seems to be a little controversy. Online payment is being taken, carts are being disinfected and only allow a single player or players from the same home to ride. Walking golf was specifically mentioned by our DOH director during a daily update as something "that might work," so we've got that going for us... which is nice.


As far as I can tell, most private clubs are allowing play, though pro shops and clubhouses should all be closed by now I'd think. The only staff at my club are essential maintenance staff, and all facilities are closed, but the course is open for socially-distanced walking play. No guests permitted. Bunker rakes are gone, and the cups have been pulled up 2 inches or so - the ball just bounces off and never goes in a hole, so there are no shared points of contact. I think that's what most clubs in the area are doing.


This is going to continue to be an evolving situation, community by community, for months. Regardless of what anyone thinks is the right answer, I continue to be very interested to learn what different courses in different communities are doing at any given time in response to this virus.


To that end, I should mention that my state appears to be doing a relatively solid job of flattening the curve so far, and I'm very pleased with my governor and DOH director. I do not expect that we will be able to play golf without interruption throughout 2020, but I'm optimistic that it can be a safe and appropriate outdoor activity during times like this when our hospitals are concerned but not immediately under siege. As a son of Kentucky who lives four miles across the river now, I would also be remiss if I didn't mention how much I appreciate the steady handed leadership of Governor Andy. He's not my governor legally, but I'm damn proud to call him my governor.

[jeffwarne]

I got a different letter every day this week on the current NY status of courses-has literally flip flopped every day as I'm guessing no one has actually spoken to the the very busy governor.
being the epicenter of the outbreak, this one seems pretty simple....


Irrelevant to us as we don't open till mid April, though many of our members are out.
Will be interesting to see what happens, and hope it's even a relevant question in 3 weeks.

[John Kavanaugh]

Has anyone spoken to Dr. Childs? Given his background, Bronx address and love of golf he would be an invaluable resource.


I thought of him yesterday and went through the archives reading each of our interactions. Wow!?!?

[John Kavanaugh]

https://files.nc.gov/governor/documents/files/200327_FAQ-SAH-Order_FINAL.pdf


Governor Roy Cooper of North Carolina specifically says golf courses can remain open. What would you do if when you pulled in the parking lot you saw a New York plate? Yesterday at CVS I parked across from a car with a NY plate and waited for the individual to exit the store before I entered.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

2 courses in PA thought they had Waivers to stay open but....


https://www.inquirer.com/business/coronavirus-pa-golf-courses-open-closed-20200327.html

[John Kavanaugh]

The excuse of other people are doing it so why can't I just never gets old.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

There were police cruisers posted at the entrances the municipal courses here in Erie yesterday. Private clubs continue to "look the other way" as members use the land to walk, often while hitting a ball every so often.

I was at my home course yesterday (no clubs), and it's private property, and saw no fewer than 14 people walking the paths. Hundreds more were at Presque Isle State Park.

John, you can file it under "other people are doing it so why can't I" if you want, but the inconsistency of allowing hundreds or thousands of people to walk around a state park on a path five or six feet wide while putting police officers at the entrance to muni courses (where people may just want to walk - one of the courses here has a full path for all 18 holes) makes no sense to some people.

People are out with their dogs. They're outside playing frisbee, or tennis, or soccer. Basketball, though of course that's mostly teens and college-aged students… what about members playing golf on their course - no flags or even holes in the greens, no clubhouse to go into, etc. - is so different?

If the rule was "do not go outside unless it's to get food or medical attention or to travel to your deemed necessary job" then that would be one thing, but that's not the rule.

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