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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #825 on: April 26, 2020, 03:54:34 PM »
Kalen,

What’s so tragic about bankruptcy in 2020 America?


Its not like it just started happening John, the American healthcare system has been ruining folks financially for decades.


Can you name a single person who would not have chosen to fight the disease. I watch people today spend thousands of dollars on their pets with zero regrets.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #826 on: April 26, 2020, 04:04:31 PM »
Kalen,

What’s so tragic about bankruptcy in 2020 America?


Its not like it just started happening John, the American healthcare system has been ruining folks financially for decades.


Can you name a single person who would not have chosen to fight the disease. I watch people today spend thousands of dollars on their pets with zero regrets.

John,

I don't begrudge people spending money on thier animals if they got it.  But when a mother or father of a young family who struggles month to month is put in a bad spot, its an entirely different proposition altogether.

P.S.  I know people this has happened to, it was not pretty all around.  Getting sick, unable to work and losing his job, to being forced to sell their home and cash out their savings.  You may think its no big deal, but I wouldn't wish the mental, emotional and physical toll it took on them on my worst enemies.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #827 on: April 26, 2020, 04:12:48 PM »
This is the wrong time to be painting our health care workers and providers as villains.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #828 on: April 26, 2020, 04:14:11 PM »
This is the wrong time to be painting our health care workers and providers as villains.

Holy Hell john,

Talk about your Strawman....

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #829 on: April 26, 2020, 04:16:03 PM »
I’m in a mandatory random drug testing program at work. I was once compensated partly based on what I believe were 10 fitness tests ranging from body fat to how quickly I could run a mile. Is Lou saying those are bad things?


Lou says that if others are paying for your healthcare, food, shelter, education, etc., you should rightfully expect that they have a lot to say on how you conduct your life.  Strings are always attached.  It is not how I prefer things to be, but if we are given the choice to accept or decline, one has to take the good with the bad.


As to the bankruptcy issue, I don't know anyone who has gone Chapter 11 due to medical bills.  I have had disputes on medical services in the past and have always been able to resolve them to mutual satisfaction.  I have known many people in real estate who have gone 11, a few 7, and the former invariably were left to regain their losses and make new fortunes.  In actuality, bankruptcy laws in the U.S. are fairly lenient to the debtor; not so much to the creditors (ref. Chrysler and GM during the last bail-out).  And in anticipation of your question,  I am not sure that this is a good thing.   

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #830 on: April 26, 2020, 04:19:18 PM »
Right Lou,

Because if you never saw it, or it didn't happen to you, it must not be so right?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this-is-the-real-reason-most-americans-file-for-bankruptcy.html

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #831 on: April 26, 2020, 04:24:29 PM »
It's simple. This pandemic is proving that we have the greatest health care system in the history of the world. Every citizen and resident who can find their way to an emergency room has an equal shot. No ones credit is checked at the door. What more do you want?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #832 on: April 26, 2020, 05:02:20 PM »
Right Lou,

Because if you never saw it, or it didn't happen to you, it must not be so right?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this-is-the-real-reason-most-americans-file-for-bankruptcy.html


You continue your bad habit of misrepresenting what people say.  You might wish to know that I do have internet service and can normally Google with relative ease.  I was not responding to your assertion that the U.S. healthcare system has been "ruining folks financially for decades".  Instead, I was agreeing with John K that bankruptcy in this country is not so tragic.


I consider myself to be well above average in terms of compassion and charity.  If someone can demonstrate to me how society benefits by divorcing personal behavior from consequences, perhaps I would start leaning more in your direction (as I perceive it to be).  As I am well into my back nine and have probably had more varied educational and life experiences than most here, I think that my view of man and of how the world works is well-informed.  Of course, I remain open to being shown the error of my ways, without all the woke nonsense, of course.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #833 on: April 26, 2020, 05:24:52 PM »
It's simple. This pandemic is proving that we have the greatest health care system in the history of the world. Every citizen and resident who can find their way to an emergency room has an equal shot. No ones credit is checked at the door. What more do you want?


Not to be presented with a bill for services provided.  And the ability to sue if the desired results are not achieved.


My daughter was rear-ended years ago on a Friday afternoon and our primary care physician recommended that I take her to the ER for x-rays and an exam.  We went to nearby Arlington Memorial Hospital where there were about a dozen or so people waiting, all Hispanics, one bleeding badly (put a chisel into his forearm as I recall).  I filled out the forms and provided my insurance card to the admissions people and about two hours later, in the order of arrival (no one came in after us), she was finally seen.


In talking with the young attending doctor, I learned that the likelihood of collecting money for services rendered to the preceding patients approached nil, and that unless it was a life or death emergency, everyone was seen in the order they checked in.  With a possible neck and neural injury, I thought that she perhaps had priority over those with flu and cold symptoms, but that was not the case.  And ability to pay provided zero consideration.   Does it get more egalitarian than this?


A side note to this episode is that when I got the bill for my part of the payment, I noticed that they had charged us for a pregnancy test.  I asked my daughter if she wanted to tell me something, but when she figured out what I was getting at, she said that she didn't ask for it. 


In checking with billing, I learned that pregnancy tests are routinely done on all women of child bearing age prior to taking X-rays.  I asked why we weren't given the option to opt out and even sign a waiver for liability, and was told that the test was required by policy and regulation.  The billing person did mention that she didn't recall anyone ever bringing up the issue before, probably an indication that when someone else is paying for the lions share of the bill, not much due diligence is done.   


Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #834 on: April 26, 2020, 06:17:53 PM »



I understand that there are public and private hospitals in the US.  In the current pandemic, if you, as an American, present yourself at a private hospital with COVID symptoms requiring in hospital treatment, can the hospital reject you if they think you can't pay either personally or through insurance?  I understand that Public hospitals have to at least stabilize you even if you can't pay.


Does your health care network provided by your insurance cover only certain hospitals and doctors?


What if you are away from home in another state?


Are all hospitals charging for services to COVID patients who can afford to pay or have insurance?


Is COVID covered under most insurance policies?


If COVID treatment lasts a week or more and the bill gets into the hundreds of thousands of $'s, does any insurance have a limit above which they don't pay.


If a person dies, is their estate liable for the costs?


For poorer people with no insurance, would they be bankrupted before they didn't have to pay any more?


Can you negotiate the price?


With hospitals requiring so many more ventilators and PPE, who pays for them whether they're bought privately or they come from State or Federal Stockpiles.  Could hospitals go bankrupt?


Just curious.  The system seems very complicated.




archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #835 on: April 26, 2020, 06:47:29 PM »
 ;D




Bryan that understates the issue. The billing system at hospitals here in the states and the legal process are so complicated I'm not sure that anybody really understands. Most if not all hospitals are going to try to save people first and worry about the price later for a condition that is life threatening. Particularly relevant today with the covid-19 epidemic.


What divides most Americans into partisan camps on health care is that many see any government takeover as a means to plunder the treasury, which isn't far fetched at all. Happens in the defense industry all the time hence dire warnings from Eisenhower and Kennedy as to the dangers of the military industrial complex.  Lots of people think JFK questioning this led to his assasination.

I guess it comes with sense of the word freedom, as the definition varies dramatically amongst our citizens.  It is similar to the tremendous debates over gun ownership.  We are blessed in many ways here in America but at present vast sums of money and power have polarized us to a great extent by playing on our emotions. It's incredible how the media presents the same event in a 360 degree spectrum as to what happened that day.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 07:15:06 PM by archie_struthers »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #836 on: April 26, 2020, 07:03:23 PM »
It seems that these discussions always wind up being an argument of whose idea or system is better.  But it doesn't end there, by one being better the argument is then made not that the other isn't as good, rather it is that the other is bad.  The US has private and public healthcare, etc. as does Canada and the UK.  The US does lean more toward the private while the UK and Canada lean toward public. Neither system is free but its source of funding is different.




Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #837 on: April 26, 2020, 07:52:19 PM »
Golf clubs in New Zealand are reopening tomorrow. Public ones remain closed.


Conditions for reopening are extensive but a few of them are below:


You must play on your own or with somebody in your bubble i.e. someone who you live with. This can be checked from your booking.


All clubhouse facilities are closed.


There are no flags or bunker rakes.


Cups are turned upside down and cut in the middle of greens.


Tee times must be booked online.


When you arrive be ready for play promptly.


Similarly once finished leave quickly.


No cards will be printed and scores not counted for handicap purposes.


Your details will also be checked on arrival.














Ari Techner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #838 on: April 26, 2020, 08:08:33 PM »
Golf clubs in New Zealand are reopening tomorrow. Public ones remain closed.


Conditions for reopening are extensive but a few of them are below:


You must play on your own or with somebody in your bubble i.e. someone who you live with. This can be checked from your booking.


All clubhouse facilities are closed.


There are no flags or bunker rakes.


Cups are turned upside down and cut in the middle of greens.


Tee times must be booked online.


When you arrive be ready for play promptly.


Similarly once finished leave quickly.


No cards will be printed and scores not counted for handicap purposes.


Your details will also be checked on arrival.


Hoping Scotland follows suit soon.

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #839 on: April 26, 2020, 08:35:08 PM »
I’m in a mandatory random drug testing program at work. I was once compensated partly based on what I believe were 10 fitness tests ranging from body fat to how quickly I could run a mile. Is Lou saying those are bad things?
In actuality, bankruptcy laws in the U.S. are fairly lenient to the debtor; not so much to the creditors (ref. Chrysler and GM during the last bail-out). 


I certainly agree with that statement given personal experience. Bankruptcy never ends well for those who are owed the money.  Seems to work out fine for those that owed the money and really works out well for the lawyers representing both sides.

MKrohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #840 on: April 26, 2020, 09:52:04 PM »

As someone who has grown up with predominately public medicine I certainly won't be wading into a discussion with Americans about healthcare for fear of being labelled a communist again.


@Ash Towe: good NZ is playing golf again, we look across the ditch (from NSW) and probably think NZ has gone too hard with some of the golf related things (the initial maintenance ban was odd) or have been too slow to lift, but history will in all likelihood judge those actions positively.


As we know golf aint that important but for golfers its our thing. We have very similar restrictions, are limited to 2 balls however we still have pins, clubhouses are opening up for basic food/beverage take away and we have competition scoring done on apps.




Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #841 on: April 26, 2020, 10:32:51 PM »
It is good to get back playing.


I think our respective governments have done a good job. Positives and negatives on both sides but who cares if we end up with the right result.


archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #843 on: April 27, 2020, 07:37:12 PM »
 8) ::)


Pennsylvania, NY, Connecticut, Delaware all going to allow golf by weeks end if not already. Not NJ, even here in the southern region where we have very few people this time of year. Hard to fathom that we are in more danger than all our neighboring states but the beaches are closed even for walking alone. Still waiting for the clouds to open and the sun to shine!

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #844 on: April 27, 2020, 08:37:51 PM »
We are not allowed to lick our balls
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #845 on: April 27, 2020, 08:44:57 PM »
Washington state will open golf on May 5. No overnight travel to golf. Only play locally. Play only with members of your household. 10 minute spacing. No rakes, upside down cups. You know the drill.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #846 on: April 28, 2020, 03:47:38 PM »
 :'( :'(


Pennsylvania is allowing golf in limited capacities later this week, my home state has yet to allow any play and time will tell. I got a few calls from caddies in Philly this am who are really concerned about their future employment. I read the Bandon Dunes caddie fund thread but now it's hitting closer to home. Many of these guys ( and girls) will have little or no work coming out of winter. I'm empathetic to their plight, and the scary thought of no health care for a great majority of them.


I was thinking that with proper education and help from clubs that use caddies, we could help them. Even limiting short term loops to forecaddy only jobs would throw many a lifeline.  Lots of us tend to carry our own and for us a caddie is a luxury but is there job really a danger to the golfers to the point we eschew them from the game entirely. Most of them can't get unemployment as they unfortunately live under the radar of the federal government. Any ideas would help.


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #848 on: April 28, 2020, 04:54:22 PM »
Charge everyone an additional $8 trail fee with the option of an $80/month flat fee.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #849 on: April 28, 2020, 07:38:27 PM »
Charge everyone an additional $8 trail fee with the option of an $80/month flat fee.


As disgusting as this idea sounds we have gotten several clubs to institute trail fees so they can pave their cart paths. It can raise an obscene amount of money. If you can do it for cart paths why not caddies?


As with all fees, once the paths are fully paid for the fee does not go away. They never do.

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