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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #800 on: April 26, 2020, 11:39:57 AM »
It doesn't make you a bad person if knowingly treating your employees respectfully increases profits.


Not sure if that is in response to me, but I generally do not use good and bad as categories for people.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #801 on: April 26, 2020, 11:52:29 AM »
Whether or not golf courses should be open, here is a model related to when states should ease Social Distancing guidelines based on ability to test, contact trace, and isolate.   I'm not a scientist but I try to follow the science, as both politicians and corporate interests clearly have stake in opening sooner than later.   

I see raw numbers like total US deaths now over 54,000 in about 5 weeks.   The total number of US deaths in the Vietnam War from the late 1950s until 1974 was just under 59,000.   With some states opening well before any scientific model suggests they should, the potential for these number to explode (much as they did in 1918) is significant. 

interestingly, this is one of the "rosier" models, but it is also one that assumes we'll continue to social distance through these periods which is clearly not happening in a number of states.   You can find more information here;   Stay safe, friends.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/04/25/844088634/when-is-it-safe-to-ease-social-distancing-heres-what-one-model-says-for-each-sta?fbclid=IwAR29T8_sAozzt9sT5pIYcMMSC9ZfCUE-LQiaoM1wMz7-nkrHUP9W3fa7SkI#table

When Can States Begin To Relax Social Distancing? Modelers from the University of Washington are estimating when COVID-19 infections fall below one case per 1 million people. At that point, easing social distancing restrictions may be possible with containment strategies that include testing, contact tracing, isolation and limiting sizes of gatherings. 
May
May 6Hawaii, Montana
May 7Alaska
May 8West Virginia
May 10Vermont
May 11North Carolina
May 13Maine
May 14Ohio
May 16Idaho, New Hampshire
May 18California
May 19Alabama, Delaware, Illinois
May 20Michigan, Nevada, Tennessee
May 21Indiana, Wisconsin
May 23Louisiana
May 24New Mexico
May 25Wyoming
May 26Colorado
May 27New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania
May 28Washington
May 29Mississippi
May 31Minnesota
June
June 4District of Columbia, Maryland, Virginia
June 8South Carolina, Texas
June 9Connecticut
June 10Massachusetts, Missouri, Rhode Island
June 14Florida, Kentucky
June 17Oklahoma
June 21Kansas
June 22Arkansas, Georgia
June 23Utah
June 26Arizona, Iowa
June 27South Dakota
July
July 3Nebraska
July 19North Dakota
   Source: Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington
Credit: Stephanie Adeline/NPR
 
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 12:06:47 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #802 on: April 26, 2020, 12:11:13 PM »
Ulrich,


The logical extension of your asking what the point of having governments at all, if they won't spend unlimited amounts to make you well, is that governments should, and do, spend unlimited amounts.  The reality is that no health care service can spend unlimited amounts.  As to how a health care service should be funded, I think you and I and most of the developed world are in full agreement.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #803 on: April 26, 2020, 12:16:16 PM »
On theology, Luther wrote in 1527 on the subject of duties during a deadly plague.  Being Luther, he spoke interestingly but not briefly. 

https://davenantinstitute.org/whether-one-may-flee-from-a-deadly-plague/
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 12:19:35 PM by Bernie Bell »

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #804 on: April 26, 2020, 12:31:58 PM »
Quote
If you or a family member gets sick, should the government be required to spend unlimited $ to get you well?
Well, what's the point of having a government at all if they don't do that? The entire idea of a society from the stone age onwards has been just that: the strong and healthy protect the weak and one day become the weak themselves. At which point there's hopefully a healthy and strong new generation, who are honoring the contract.

No one would ever ask this question: if another country invades ours, should the government be required to spend their last dime to fend off the attackers and save my family?
Ulrich you get how Democrats think now. Republicans would rather protect the yachts and empty seasonal mansions of millionaires than citizens that are less fortunate. However Reps have more money to buy politicians like Moscow Mitch and comrade Trumpsky so things are not changing soon.


Interesting Tim, I must have forgotten where I docked my Yacht but I have to admit I'm pissed that I can't get to my seasonal "mansion" in Florida........ It's dangerous to group everyone into one category. But that is what Dems do right? What's next are you going to tell me I'm a racist because I'm a registered Republican? BTW I'm no fan of Trump either.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Peter Pallotta

Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #805 on: April 26, 2020, 12:36:51 PM »
Or, as Frodo Baggins said in a moment of crises and personal decision:
"I will take it. I will take the Ring to Mordor. Though, I do not know the way". 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #806 on: April 26, 2020, 12:48:19 PM »
Mike Cirba,


A death is not a death. The death of a parent is not equal to the death of a child. I can't fathom another Vietnam nearly as well as I will welcome the next pandemic.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #807 on: April 26, 2020, 12:55:56 PM »
My comments are in relation to Mike saying this is the worst crisis of our lifetime. I was born in 1960 and Mike not far soon after. It would be interesting to rank the greatest crisis since 1960.


Besides Vietnam I would also include the abuse of children and subsequent cover up by the Catholic Church. By the time this is over it might make my top ten.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #808 on: April 26, 2020, 01:16:55 PM »
On theology, Luther wrote in 1527 on the subject of duties during a deadly plague.  Being Luther, he spoke interestingly but not briefly. 

https://davenantinstitute.org/whether-one-may-flee-from-a-deadly-plague/


Thanks, it has been many years since I had read that piece. It is said of Luther that he never had an unpublished thought. Saint. Paul wrote, "We who are strong must bear the burdens of the weak." There are some so fearful that they have become immobile by the virus and have to flee. Everyone has to answer that question for him/herself.


I miss being in a parish at this moment. I was with the same folks for 34 years and miss being their pastor now more than ever. What would be difficult would not being able to be their at a time of hospitalisation or in some cases death. I was a volunteer hospital chaplain, however, and they are able to be present with patients at some hospitals.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #809 on: April 26, 2020, 01:19:36 PM »
Well, I am learning a lot about the formation of societies and institutions, how the value of some lives have changed 180° since 2016, and how impossible it is to have a frank discussion without mischaracterizing the other side's positions and erecting easy to destroy strawmen.  Very disappointing, really.


Tommy W- I've always had a problem getting my arms around original sin, but I am a full believer in Judeo/Christian values.  Good message.  I have no doubt that Texas Governor Abbott is evaluating all options carefully with a lot more valid scientific input than offered on this site.


But back to the subject, I played a Dallas area premium course yesterday and 120-140 players are going out daily, all walking.  My home club has not ever had more play, albeit with few services and close attention to social distancing.


A side benefit is that we are being allowed to use our own pushcarts for as long as the restrictions last and I now have seven rounds under my belt using my ClicGear in the 10 years I've owned it.  It does make it easier on the shoulders and back.  I may have a hard time going back to carrying when the policy is reversed to only using the club's fleet at around $8/round.   

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #810 on: April 26, 2020, 01:29:19 PM »
John Kavanaugh,

I was born in 1958.   My older brother did have to get a draft card and was in the Vietnam lottery but fortunately for him and our family he was picked somewhere in the low 200s.  I didn't turn 18 until 1976, so was fortunate in that regard, as well.

I believe when all is said and done that this crisis will be viewed as the most devastating to our country and our planet in our lifetimes.   The numbers to date are just by way of acceleration rate comparison and not meant to value one over the other.   By definition a young death is more tragic than an older one, given the lost potential.

During the 1960s Harry Chapin wrote a song meant to parody and criticize the focus on the nightly "numbers" being announced on the news of daily deaths and casualties (rather than the actual humanity) during Vietnam, called "30,000 Pounds of Bananas", about a truck driver who crashed and died in Scranton, PA near where I grew up.   News stories and local anecdotal lore focused on the mess of tons of bananas strewn down the long hill and the black humor of the song was meant to point out that our abstraction of events into numbers often misses the bigger picture.   
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 01:30:52 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #811 on: April 26, 2020, 01:32:52 PM »
Worse to our planet? You must have an optimistic view of climate change.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #812 on: April 26, 2020, 01:47:12 PM »
Born 1959 myself.  If this is the most devastating crisis in our lifetime, it will not be because of the disease it will be because of an economic depression. Hopefully we can avoid that.  In terms of human death and suffering, this is not even the most devastating crisis of the decade, which would be opioid addiction and overdose death by a margin so wide it's not even close.  And if there is yet to be a positive scientific breakthrough that changes the currently projected COVID outcomes, the overwhelming likelihood is that it will come from United States, just like the vast majority of other pharmaceutical breakthroughs in our lifetimes.  Despite its manifold shortcomings, our system in this respect has results demonstrably superior to those of every other "developed" nation that our betters, both within and without the US, are constantly telling us are morally superior.   It's not all boner pills and Botox.  Google Maurice Hilleman of Merck for just one example.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #813 on: April 26, 2020, 01:54:35 PM »
On theology, Luther wrote in 1527 on the subject of duties during a deadly plague.  Being Luther, he spoke interestingly but not briefly. 

https://davenantinstitute.org/whether-one-may-flee-from-a-deadly-plague/


Thanks, it has been many years since I had read that piece. It is said of Luther that he never had an unpublished thought. Saint. Paul wrote, "We who are strong must bear the burdens of the weak." There are some so fearful that they have become immobile by the virus and have to flee. Everyone has to answer that question for him/herself.


I miss being in a parish at this moment. I was with the same folks for 34 years and miss being their pastor now more than ever. What would be difficult would not being able to be their at a time of hospitalisation or in some cases death. I was a volunteer hospital chaplain, however, and they are able to be present with patients at some hospitals.

Yes, I found the whole YouTube Easter thing very strange.  In terms of Luther, in re-reading the piece I was reminded of the endlessly creative ways in which he insulted his theological adversaries.  This passage jumped out at me in relation to some of the recent posts here on GCA.com:

"They made an answer to my treatise long ago, but I am surprised that it has not yet reached me at Wittenberg.[When it does] I shall, God willing, answer them once again and let the matter drop. I can see that they will only become worse. They are like a bedbug which itself has a foul smell, but the harder you rub to crush it, the more it stinks."
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:01:14 PM by Bernie Bell »

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #814 on: April 26, 2020, 01:57:04 PM »
I'm talking about the combination of factors including long term illness, deaths, economic collapse, etc. worldwide.  In many ways, this is just getting started.  We have no therapeutics, no vaccine, no idea about antibody immunity or for how long, asymptomatic carriers could be higher than 25%, most anticipate future waves, and we're only a few months in.


It is unlikely that climate change will have the same impact in our lifetimes.


"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #815 on: April 26, 2020, 01:59:15 PM »
If we really want to break this down this pandemic is but a symptom of the disease of racism that our generation has done little to cure since the civil rights movement that was born alongside us in the 60’s.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #816 on: April 26, 2020, 02:02:22 PM »
On theology, Luther wrote in 1527 on the subject of duties during a deadly plague.  Being Luther, he spoke interestingly but not briefly. 

https://davenantinstitute.org/whether-one-may-flee-from-a-deadly-plague/


Thanks, it has been many years since I had read that piece. It is said of Luther that he never had an unpublished thought. Saint. Paul wrote, "We who are strong must bear the burdens of the weak." There are some so fearful that they have become immobile by the virus and have to flee. Everyone has to answer that question for him/herself.


I miss being in a parish at this moment. I was with the same folks for 34 years and miss being their pastor now more than ever. What would be difficult would not being able to be their at a time of hospitalisation or in some cases death. I was a volunteer hospital chaplain, however, and they are able to be present with patients at some hospitals.

Yes, I found the whole YouTube Easter thing very strange.  In terms of Luther, in re-reading the piece I was reminded of the endlessly creative ways in which he berated his theological adversaries.  This passage jumped out at me in relation to some of the recent posts here on GCA.com:

"They made an answer to my treatise long ago, but I am surprised that it has not yet reached me at Wittenberg.[When it does] I shall, God willing, answer them once again and let the matter drop. I can see that they will only become worse. They are like a bedbug which itself has a foul smell, but the harder you rub to crush it, the more it stinks."


Luther did not suffer fools, but how did he know so much about bed bugs? He spoke more than he wanted.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #817 on: April 26, 2020, 02:03:42 PM »
If we really want to break this down this pandemic is but a symptom of the disease of racism that our generation has done little to cure since the civil rights movement that was born alongside us in the 60’s.

Such data as are available say it has a helliuva lot more to do with the actual disease of obesity.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #818 on: April 26, 2020, 02:11:31 PM »
I’m getting obesier everyday but something about sheltering in a house on the ocean and ordering $100 carry out makes it less relevant.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:14:10 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #819 on: April 26, 2020, 02:39:31 PM »
It's not all boner pills and Botox.  Google Maurice Hilleman of Merck for just one example.


Hey, let's not go there.


David Thomas,


The setting of regulations and law relative to health cannot be divorced from the payment vehicle.  "Follow the money" applies here.  As long as the bulk of funds for medical services are passed through from taxpayers to the federal government, back to the states, and to the lower levels of government (counties, cities, non-profits), the feds will place a very heavy thumb on the scale.


Conservative states tend to prefer block grants to spend in ways which fit the specific needs as they see them.  Other states appear to prefer more universal governance.  How NY and CA approach healthcare is very different than how TX and UT, for example, go about it.


Unfortunately, setting policy and regulation without corresponding enforcement presents serious problems.  In my opinion, if government is paying for healthcare, education, housing, food, etc., it has a responsibility and a right to demand specific performance from its wards.  For example, why should the taxpayer incur the high healthcare costs of morbidly obese citizens without requiring lifestyle changes?  Or permit a Type II diabetic on numerous prescriptions to go through gallons of ice cream every month?


If a person is one of 25 million government employees, would it be unreasonable to have monthly weigh-ins and review of blood chemistry periodically with the progress tied to compensation and benefits?  How about a private sector worker being required through his employer or the state directly to undergo annual physical examinations and have follow-ups in accordance with his physical condition?  As the statists keep telling us correctly, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  A software salesman showing signs of alcoholism or drug abuse might be commanded to rehab as a condition of continued employment (I can already hear the howls).


As one who lost his freedom completely in my formative years, I am much more willing to forsake security for liberty.  I understand that others value security over not having to be responsible for the inherent risks of living.  I am suggesting that there is a large economic, psychological and spiritual cost involved, and that in the long run, you can't have both, security and liberty, as many may wish in an appreciable manner.   
 

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #820 on: April 26, 2020, 03:02:17 PM »
Thanks Lou. Nice to hear thoughts on how things are done in other countries.
Anyone like to comment from the perspective of their home nation?
Atb

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #821 on: April 26, 2020, 03:11:41 PM »
I’m in a mandatory random drug testing program at work. I was once compensated partly based on what I believe were 10 fitness tests ranging from body fat to how quickly I could run a mile. Is Lou saying those are bad things?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #822 on: April 26, 2020, 03:34:08 PM »
Thomas,

To answer your original healthcare question from a few pages ago, the health care issue is certainly a problem.  Its the number 1 cause of bankruptices in the US and 90+% of the population is one major health issue from financial ruin. In terms of politics, I think Obamacare is a good measuring point.

Conservatives think Obamacare was a gross over reach and fight for it to be recalled...
while Democrats think it was just the start and are frustrated there is not more progress.

Good luck finding common ground in that scenario.



John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #823 on: April 26, 2020, 03:45:10 PM »
Kalen,


What’s so tragic about bankruptcy in 2020 America?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Any course restrictions due to Coronavirus?
« Reply #824 on: April 26, 2020, 03:48:20 PM »
Kalen,

What’s so tragic about bankruptcy in 2020 America?


Its not like it just started happening John, the American healthcare system has been ruining folks financially for decades.

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