A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9

[Steve_Lovett]

At some point, the virus will go away and trip to Florida will be in the picture.  Is Mountain Lake possible for unaccompanied play?

I'd give that a very strong "no" unless you have a close relationship with a club member, in which case I'd give that a reluctant "maybe".


It's a very private place.


- Steve

[John Kavanaugh]

As someone who recently called Mountain Lake with the intention of joining I found their policy fascinating. I own a home too far for a local membership and too close for a regional. They simply could not have been nicer or more accommodating.

[Tim_Weiman]

At some point, the virus will go away and trip to Florida will be in the picture.  Is Mountain Lake possible for unaccompanied play?

I'd give that a very strong "no" unless you have a close relationship with a club member, in which case I'd give that a reluctant "maybe".


It's a very private place.


- Steve

Steve,


Very private and a very relaxed, pleasant place. As for the golf, I wish the Redan hole was in my backyard.

[Kyle Harris]

The Redan is the worst hole at Mountain Lake. You can play it with a putter and it's the worst looking hole on the property.

[Joe Bausch]

The atmosphere at ML is superb.  Memories are still fresh from my visit there in January 2013. 

Photos for your perusal:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/MountainLake/index.html

[Jon Wiggett]

The Redan is the worst hole at Mountain Lake. You can play it with a putter and it's the worst looking hole on the property.

Being able to play it with a putter is one of the reasons that used to be given for TOC's greatness

[Kyle Harris]

The Redan is the worst hole at Mountain Lake. You can play it with a putter and it's the worst looking hole on the property.

Being able to play it with a putter is one of the reasons that used to be given for TOC's greatness

Well, you can play the Eden hole there with a putter, too.


Haven't heard anybody extolling the virtues of playing North Berwick's Redan that way, however.

[Jon Wiggett]

Kyle,


if you are at the bottom of the bank in front of Redan then the putter is one of the sensible choices.


I played NB a few years back with three other GCAers and when we reached 16 we all hit our tee shots to about 100 yards short of the green. Niall C of us hit a wedge bouncing it short and letting it run up the slope to about 10 feet from the flag positioned on the right section of the green. Jon Byron hit an expert high floated shot that landed on the top of the slope and rolled to about two foot from Niall's. I used my putter and rolled the ball to about 6 foot and sneaky long Mr. Muldoon hit a bump and run (7-8 iron) just inside mine. The greatness in the hole and especially the green complex is that it allows for a multitude of possible solutions.


My point being that being able to play a hole a particular way should not be seen as a negative. Spectacular does not great which is something many really do not understand.


Jon

[Tim_Weiman]

The Redan is the worst hole at Mountain Lake. You can play it with a putter and it's the worst looking hole on the property.

Being able to play it with a putter is one of the reasons that used to be given for TOC's greatness

Jon,


I don’t know Kyle but assume he must be trolling. Yes, one could play Mountain Lake’s Redan with a putter, but there is no apparent reason one would do so. The same could be said for the Redan at Shinnecock, NGLA, Chicago Golf Club and probably North Berwick itself.

[JC Urbina]

Tim,


We are on the same page, The Redan at ML is a shining example of the variety in Raynor's template holes.  I recently played with a group from NY and remarked how different the Redan was from the countless others I have seen.   Never did I think that it was the worst hole in fact I think it shows the creativity in the space allotted.  Simply put.  We teed up and each had a different experience on the hole, PERFECT!

[Joel_Stewart]

Tim,


We are on the same page, The Redan at ML is a shining example of the variety in Raynor's template holes.  I recently played with a group from NY and remarked how different the Redan was form the countless others I have seen.   Never did I think that it was the worst hole in fact I think it shows the creativity in the space allotted.  Simply put.  We teed up and each had a different experience on the hole, PERFECT!

Good point Jim, our group had the same experience.


Any ideas on what Gil will be doing on his restoration?  I know there is some non native tree removal.

[Kyle Harris]

The Redan is the worst hole at Mountain Lake. You can play it with a putter and it's the worst looking hole on the property.

Being able to play it with a putter is one of the reasons that used to be given for TOC's greatness

Jon,


I don’t know Kyle but assume he must be trolling. Yes, one could play Mountain Lake’s Redan with a putter, but there is no apparent reason one would do so. The same could be said for the Redan at Shinnecock, NGLA, Chicago Golf Club and probably North Berwick itself.

Every golf course has a worst hole.

[Tim_Weiman]

Kyle,


If you really think Mountain Lake has 17 holes more fun to play than the Redan, then you must believe Mountain Lake is the greatest course in America and the entire world!


Calling the Redan the “worst hole” is quite a compliment to Mountain Lake. It certainly deserves lots of praise, but is going a little too far, IMO.


Jim,


I remember quite a few years back having the pleasure of spending a few hours at Winged Foot with Tommy Naccarato and Neil Regan whose knowledge of the greens was truly amazing. It was a lesson that one didn’t have to play the entire course to have a great time. Thanks, Neil!


The Redan at Mountain Lake is like that. One could spend a few hours just playing that hole and have a wonderful experience. I’m a fan of the Redan concept, but this one is just a real pleasure.


I don’t know Kyle’s travels or his education in golf architecture, but have to think he is trolling.

[Kyle Harris]

Tim,


I worked at Mountain Lake as a Spray Tech From Oct. 2006-May 2007. I've played there 1-2x per year since starting at Streamsong in 2011.


Prior to the most recent string of restenovations, the worst hole at Mountain Lake was the Road Hole #7. The improvements to the green area on #7 have pushed it ahead in my esteem.


The Redan at Mountain Lake is nothing more than a cute party trick wrapped up under the label of a golf hole that is all-too-often a lot more than it is in the minds of golfers who tend to overthink things anyway. As far as template Par-3's go, the Redan is by far the worst of the lot at Mountain Lake (the juxtaposition of the Biarritz is incredible, the farther you try to carry the ball on to the green the tighter the OB becomes). For interest, I can't place the hole over any of the two-shotters and both Par-5s at Mountain Lake are superb.


So, what is it about the Redan at Mountain Lake that is so great? It's a good setting and anything with Ginger Snaps so near should be praise.


But the shot? It doesn't do anything to defend against a high shot directly at the flag. At all. Can you say the same for any of the other famous Redans? 2nd at Somerset Hills? 4th at NGLA? The original?


So trolling? Hardly. I suppose it's a fun hole, but it's last on my list of holes at Mountain Lake I ever want another crack at. I can hit high 175-yard shots on the range as much as I want.


P.S. The first ace I ever witnessed was on this hole. I was working at the time.

[Tim_Weiman]

Kyle,


No doubt there are more challenging Redans, including those you mentioned. The good thing about Mountain Lake’s version is the word you used: fun. Then, too, I like that it has its own character. What’s the point of traveling if one doesn’t experience something different?


As for being “something different”, I think Mountain Lake as a whole has that covered. Yes, the Raynor aspect is obvious, but in a different setting, one that doesn’t remind me of anywhere else.


One other point I should have made in my first post: Mountain Lake has something in common with St. Andrews Beach, my favorite of Tom Doak’s course. Neither are really about aesthetics. Instead, they are both about hitting golf shots and very quickly, early in the round focus your attention on doing just that.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,


No doubt there are more challenging Redans, including those you mentioned. The good thing about Mountain Lake’s version is the word you used: fun. Then, too, I like that it has its own character. What’s the point of traveling if one doesn’t experience something different?

What's so different about a Par-3 that asks you to carry a ball 175-yards directly to the flag?


That's my point: The hole is good because it's a well executed example of that shot in a nice setting. It's not *great* and it's certainly not a great Redan. It's the C- hole at Mountain Lake. That's okay, Mountain Lake has more than a few B+ and above holes!


Here's a hole with the exact same shot, there's even a little tier/kicker back in the shadow:





From: The Bausch Collection

[Ken Fry]

I've long stated how much I enjoy rounds at Mountain Lake.  The entire experience is FUN, the golf course is FUN.

With that, I've also stated a luke warm feeling for the redan #11th hole.  My impression was a true redan asks for a drawn tee shot to use the slope to feed the ball to certain hole locations.  I found the downhill nature of ML's redan version eliminates that shot.  Instead, a high lofted shot to the pin usually works best.

That's not to say there aren't other options to try but a low running right to left shot into the hill fronting the green usually doesn't produce a favorable outcome.

Ken

[Tim_Weiman]

Kyle,


So, if the option exists to hit a high lofted 175 yard shot directly at the pin, that makes it a C- hole? Or a C- Redan?


What about a 190 yard such shot?


Ken,


I played Mountain Lake twice. On the first crack at #11, I hit a poor shot and came up short. Not sure what that demonstrated other than missing short right is probably better than short into the front bunker, at least for most people.


The second day I hit an ok but not good shot. Was hoping for kick of the backboard but landed pin high and the ball didn’t move.


I would defer to anyone who has played the hole many times, but I would like to see what would happen with a drawn tee shot landing maybe 10 feet inside the right side of the green towards the back of the green.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,


So, if the option exists to hit a high lofted 175 yard shot directly at the pin, that makes it a C- hole? Or a C- Redan?


What about a 190 yard such shot?

That option always exists on any hole. It's when it is the best option and likely the only option that always works that makes the shot and hole average. Distance makes little difference until you get to one extreme or the other, say under 120 yards or over 220 yards.


The hole doesn't demonstrate anything that can't be proven on a driving range from the tee.

[Ken Fry]

I would defer to anyone who has played the hole many times, but I would like to see what would happen with a drawn tee shot landing maybe 10 feet inside the right side of the green towards the back of the green.

Tim,

On the few trips I've been to ML I've taken the opportunity to hit quite a few shots on #11.

Hitting anywhere into the hill front right of the green would typically kill the shot as you described.  Getting aggressive to the inside edge of the hill brings the back bunker into play, an absolute no-no.

There's two ways to look at this.  If I'm most concerned with score, I'm looking to loft the ball into the third of the green the pin is sitting.  If I'm standing up there just trying to have fun, I'll keep trying to manufacture something that will run it's way to the pin.

Ken

[Sean_A]

If the tee shot is downhill it ain't a Redan. You folks are better off discussing the hole on its merits or lack thereof rather trying to bracket the conversation within the constraints of a template hole.

Ciao

[Steve_Lovett]

If the tee shot is downhill it ain't a Redan. You folks are better off discussing the hole on its merits or lack thereof rather trying to bracket the conversation within the constraints of a template hole.

Ciao

If the hole has been there since 1915 and basically the author of the Redan template concept calls it a Redan, who are we to say it isn't? Isn't it cool to see how template holes adapt to different sites?


On its merit, template or not, the 11th at Mountain Lake is a fun hole and the setting with the halfway house building and watching other people play the hole while having a sandwich or beverage is entertaining.

[Tim_Weiman]

If the tee shot is downhill it ain't a Redan. You folks are better off discussing the hole on its merits or lack thereof rather trying to bracket the conversation within the constraints of a template hole.

Ciao

Isn’t the NGLA Redan actually a bit downhill? Yale’s certainly is as much as Mountain Lake? Pacific Dunes?

[JC Urbina]

Tim,


A lot of the Redans that Macdonald and Raynor created were slighty down hill.  If I am not mistaken The Nationals Redan is about 10 feet below the tee at the deepest edge of the green.  I can only think of a few that didn't, Fishers Island, Shore Acres to name a few while others appear like they play uphill, Chicago Golf Club.


I certainly don't think that a golf course should be judged by it's Redan but as most of us know, the familarity of Macdonald and Raynor's Ideal Holes are what draws us to analyze each and every one. 


Some like the original better then any of the others that were created.  But let's remember when Macdonald first drew the Redan and brought it back to America to recreate it,  did he think that everyone would have an aerial and ground photo of the hole on their phone for
review and critique.


Macdonald was simply trying to capture a design that fascinated links players of that era.  Raynor never saw the hole so he knew not of its finer points, he simply designed and built them where ever he felt they fit the land and the routing.


Enjoy each and everyone for what they stand for, and yes some are more inviting to play while others may feel that they simply carry the moniker "Redan"

[Sean_A]

If the tee shot is downhill it ain't a Redan. You folks are better off discussing the hole on its merits or lack thereof rather trying to bracket the conversation within the constraints of a template hole.

Ciao

If the hole has been there since 1915 and basically the author of the Redan template concept calls it a Redan, who are we to say it isn't? Isn't it cool to see how template holes adapt to different sites?

On its merit, template or not, the 11th at Mountain Lake is a fun hole and the setting with the halfway house building and watching other people play the hole while having a sandwich or beverage is entertaining.

This has been discussed before. My issue is the moniker carries descriptive meaning in how a hole looks and plays. It's use loses any sense of common meaning when certain elements are not adhered to. IMO, this is what has happened with Redan and Punchbowl. This opinion is not a reflection on the quality of the holes.

Ciao