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Tim_Weiman

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A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« on: March 12, 2020, 04:17:23 PM »
I spent a few days in Florida last week playing two rounds at Mountain Lake and one at the Winter Park 9. These are two very different venues, but both are worthy of a visit if you are in the Orlando area.

There are several things that standout at Mountain Lake, width being perhaps the most noticeable and enjoyable. This is a course one can and should play without losing a ball, not just because of wide fairways but also wide open areas on either side of fairways on most holes.

That said it appears angles are important. On quite a few holes there is an advantage and, shall I say, comfort to being in the ideal fairway location.

My favorite feature of Mountain Lake might be the location of those greens that sit atop hills with relatively long, gentle and deceiving rises. These are holes where a golfer will often need to add at least one club and sometimes two depending on hole location. But, one can’t get too aggressive: almost every hole at Mountain Lake has trouble over the green.

As for the greens themselves, they were superbly conditioned, firm and fast with plenty of contour. I’m not sure how exactly how fast the greens were playing, but would observe that if the club wanted to slow them down, they would still present lots of interest.

One other point about the greens: if one prefers, one could approach them from the ground - say, a low running 7 iron - in addition to the option of an attack from the air.

As for the individual holes, Mountain Lake’s Redan is the star. It plays downhill from multiple tees that vary in length from 140 to 190 yards. The amphitheater setting is fantastic. If there is a more fun version of the Redan, I haven’t seen it. One could play it for hours and not get bored.

Mountain Lake has an obvious Seth Raynor feel. The bunkers, both fairway and green side, assure that. But, Mountain Lake has its own unique and extremely pleasant sense about it. If you are invited to play it, by all means make the trip.

I understand architect Gil Hanse will soon be visiting Mountain Lake. Honestly, I didn’t really see anything at Mountain Lake I would change.

Winter Park 9

The nine hole course in Winter Park is, as I said, a very different venue. It is a pretty flat property that sits in the middle of a residential area with a couple churches and a cemetery to boot. What makes the Winter Park 9 worth checking out is the feeling one gets that many communities could and should have a course like it. It plays only about 2,500 yards and all of the interest is greens which were re-done a few years back by Riley Johns and Keith Rhebb, who did a very nice job, IMO.

Apparently, Don Mahaffey was also part of the project. Maybe Don with his expertise can comment on whether, realistically, many communities could have a course like the Winter Park 9. I have no hesitation in saying many communities should have such a course.

Strange as it might seem, playing the Winter Park 9 brought Dooks in Ireland to mind, not because these two course have similar settings, but because they both are a little piece of heaven - pure fun and enjoyment.
Tim Weiman

JC Urbina

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2020, 04:46:42 PM »
Tim,


I did the same trip the last part of January, with a perfect group of guys  I concur with you that both golf courses offer the full spectrum of golf that I enjoy.




Mountain Lake is heads above most of the golf course designs in Florida.  Exactly what you would expect from a Seth Raynor design.  WP9 is one of the funnest walks in golf, Riley and Keith hit it out of the Ballpark with this layout.  We played a fivesome at WP9 from the Bandon group  and had a blast.


I am surprised RIley and Keith are not working on both ends of the U.S.  I recently talked to a few people who have seen what they have done in Michigan and once again they are way ahead on the creative side.  Bravo!


Superstar holes at Mountain Lake for me were #6,12 and 14. 


Some of the coolest greens at WP9 were #5 and #6

Tim_Weiman

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2020, 05:36:32 PM »
Jim,


Mountain Lake is a wonderful place and golf course, not easy to replicate.


So, in a sense, I was more impressed by the Winter Park 9. It feels like every community should have such a course.


Do you have any thoughts on whether the Winter Park 9 can be replicated elsewhere?
Tim Weiman

Derek_Duncan

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2020, 06:22:49 PM »
Jim,


Mountain Lake is a wonderful place and golf course, not easy to replicate.


So, in a sense, I was more impressed by the Winter Park 9. It feels like every community should have such a course.


Do you have any thoughts on whether the Winter Park 9 can be replicated elsewhere?


Tim,


WP9 has at least two things going for it that would probably be difficult but not impossible to find elsewhere. The first is, it's built on sand, and that helps not just with cost and drainage but also with the firm, bouncy turf that makes the course so fun.


The second is that Winter Park is a relatively small, relatively affluent community with good civic leadership. The town produces a good, stable stream of clients. Projects like this would be much easier to green light in places where the bureaucracy is more controllable.


Jim,


Everyone talks about the sixth green, but number five is sublime.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

JC Urbina

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2020, 10:57:13 PM »
Tim,


Not only could WP9 be duplicated it must.   For several reasons,
1- Sense of Community
2- The staff makes you feel welcome
3- The cost to create the golf course.
4- Pace of play
5- Creative design
6 -Fun greens and green surrounds
7- Cost to maintain
8- Built for all levels of players
9- Affordable
10- Few rules


Tim,


You can add your reasons.  I would like to have the chance to create a few nine holes golf courses in a community setting like WP9


Derek,


Although I enjoy creative greens like the 13th at Prestwick, I also enjoy the subtle lines of a creative green like #5.  In fact I should send you my top 10 greens that require a second and third look before you putt.  On the top of my list is the 16th at SFGC. 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 11:10:17 PM by JC Urbina »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2020, 11:58:30 PM »
Derek & Jim,


As Jim’s post illustrates, there are some really nice things about WP9. That seems obvious. The place is really cool.


What I would like to know is building and maintaining such a course economic?
Tim Weiman

Adam Lawrence

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2020, 06:34:19 AM »
Derek & Jim,


As Jim’s post illustrates, there are some really nice things about WP9. That seems obvious. The place is really cool.


What I would like to know is building and maintaining such a course economic?


Tim


The Winter Park rebuild was budgeted at $1.2 million and, as I understand it, came in under budget, even with the addition of the putting course. Also as I understand it, the place is rammed dawn till dusk. Use your own judgement as to whether this is economic  :)
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Derek_Duncan

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2020, 09:44:38 AM »
Derek & Jim,


As Jim’s post illustrates, there are some really nice things about WP9. That seems obvious. The place is really cool.


What I would like to know is building and maintaining such a course economic?


Tim,


Rhebb and Johns had to do some creative and unusual things to work out the construction, budget and the contracting -- I'm not sure how transportable it is. They also had the ability to sit on the site and do much of the work personally, so any similar project would do well to hire builders similarly committed.


I asked Rhebb to hypothetically estimate a cost to do something similar to an old 9-holer where I live built on clay, and he said the cost would probably double.


There's some good information on WP9 on this podcast:


https://podcast.iseekgolf.com/93
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Derek_Duncan

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2020, 09:45:34 AM »

Derek,


Although I enjoy creative greens like the 13th at Prestwick, I also enjoy the subtle lines of a creative green like #5.  In fact I should send you my top 10 greens that require a second and third look before you putt.  On the top of my list is the 16th at SFGC.


Jim,


I'll take that list!
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Carl Nichols

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2020, 11:14:23 AM »
Tim--


We may have been at Mountain Lake at the same time; I was there March 6, 7, and 8. 


In any event, I agree with everything you said--especially the importance of playing from the right side of the fairway.  In fact, on some holes with certain hole locations, even being in the rough from the correct side seemed better than being in the fairway on the other side.


The only thing I would add is that the greens were probably the fastest "bermuda" (not sure what version) greens I've ever played on.  The club championship was also played the weekend I was there, which may have had something to do with it. 


Carl

Tim_Weiman

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2020, 01:35:47 PM »
Carl,


We were there around the same time. Played Mountain Lake on the 5th and 6th.


The greens certainly were among the fastest I have ever played, yet not unplayable or unfair. I think Mountain Lake has the flexibility to maintain their greens at different speeds and still be interesting.
Tim Weiman

Tim_Weiman

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2020, 01:45:10 PM »
Derek,


I get that a clay base might be more costly than sand. What I wonder: is there such a thing as dirt? In other words, neither sand nor clay?


If so, I wonder what the costs would be?


FYI, the Cleveland Metro Parks has two 9 hole courses. I’m a big fan of these courses, not because they offer much, if anything, interesting architecturally, but because they are affordable and ideal for young kids learning the game.


IMO, it would be interesting to take one and spruce it up a bit with greens like WP9.


I’d just like to see moe WP9s.
Tim Weiman

Derek_Duncan

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2020, 02:03:44 PM »
Tim,


I'd also love to see more WP9s -- it's a topic I talk about all the time.


An architect or contractor would be better to speak to, but cost on a project like this really comes down to drainage, doesn't it (both tee-to-green and internally on the greens), and drainage is largely dependent on soil type.


Hopefully more municipalities explore Winter Park and see the economic and community benefits. However, there were a some unique circumstances that made it so affordable -- and popular. My guess is that $1.2 million (or whatever the number actually was) wouldn't quite get it done in most places.


I'd love to hear someone else's opinion on the topic. Don Mahaffey?
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Joel_Stewart

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2020, 08:18:01 PM »
I played WP9 2 years ago and then again last November after reading about it and thought I missed something.  It helps when you have Matt Ginella continually hyping it on social media. Sure its an inexpensive quick round in a nice town but architecturally its nothing special. Its dead flat, in okay condition but 1,5,6,and the 9th are all driveable par 4s. The 3rd and 4th are good holes. The par 3s are average, the second and eighth play basically the same distance.


I agree that towns need more 9 hole courses with a good vibe but it won't be easy replicating how nice Winter Park is.




Kyle Harris

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2020, 09:26:30 PM »
I played WP9 2 years ago and then again last November after reading about it and thought I missed something.  It helps when you have Matt Ginella continually hyping it on social media. Sure its an inexpensive quick round in a nice town but architecturally its nothing special. Its dead flat, in okay condition but 1,5,6,and the 9th are all driveable par 4s. The 3rd and 4th are good holes. The par 3s are average, the second and eighth play basically the same distance.


I agree that towns need more 9 hole courses with a good vibe but it won't be easy replicating how nice Winter Park is.


Sounds like you must have shot a 27, then.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

JC Urbina

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2020, 10:44:52 PM »
Derek,


I would love to talk about WP9 but I would rather Keith Rebb or RIley Johns chime in since they built it.  Second hand information happens a lot on this site, we should hear it from the horses mouth so to speak so I suggest Ran let Riley or Keith step in with an interview in the Feature Interview Section to discuss their creation.




I will say that building on sand is the key ( least expensive)  component.


Top Ten subtle greens headed your way.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 08:27:49 AM by JC Urbina »

Tim_Weiman

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2020, 11:24:49 PM »
I played WP9 2 years ago and then again last November after reading about it and thought I missed something.  It helps when you have Matt Ginella continually hyping it on social media. Sure its an inexpensive quick round in a nice town but architecturally its nothing special. Its dead flat, in okay condition but 1,5,6,and the 9th are all driveable par 4s. The 3rd and 4th are good holes. The par 3s are average, the second and eighth play basically the same distance.


I agree that towns need more 9 hole courses with a good vibe but it won't be easy replicating how nice Winter Park is.
Joel,


I’m a bit confused by your post. You appear to trash WP9 as nothing special, but say it won’t be easy replicating how nice WP9 is.


Others above have suggested it is the sand base that will be hard to replicate. Is that what you meant? Or were there other factors you had in mind?


Finally, I strongly believe WP9 is a place students of golf architecture should see and try to learn from. As I am having trouble understanding your post, I’m wondering if you would recommend WP9 to anyone who is in the vicinity of Orlando?
Tim Weiman

Tim_Weiman

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2020, 11:40:21 PM »
Derek,


I would love to talk about WP9 but I would rather Keith Rebb or RIley Johns chime in since they built it.  Second hand information happens a lot on this site, we should here it from the horses mouth so to speak so I suggest Ran let Riley or Keith step in with an interview in the Feature Interview Section to discuss their creation.




I will say that building on sand is the key ( least expensive)  component.


Top Ten subtle greens headed your way.
Jim,


Let me second your suggestion that Ran do an interview with Riley and Keith. It would be nice to have Don Mahaffey participate as well.


Great idea. WP9 is worthy of our attention.
Tim Weiman

Don Mahaffey

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2020, 10:11:48 AM »
Is it possible to renovate/improve more municipal golf courses in a manner similar to WP9? Absolutely.


1) True design build with designers on site everyday physically building the course.
2) true public/private cooperation where city staff and resources are available to help with project needs.


It’s all about city admin making it happen. That is key, followed by selecting a talented team of designers/builders.


The WP9 project was as simple a project I’ve ever been a part of in terms of decision making and process. It was all about the golf.  Anyone who has ever worked in the public sector knows how rare that is.

Carl Rogers

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2020, 03:24:24 PM »
At some point, the virus will go away and trip to Florida will be in the picture.  Is Mountain Lake possible for unaccompanied play?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Joel_Stewart

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2020, 06:54:55 PM »
I played WP9 2 years ago and then again last November after reading about it and thought I missed something.  It helps when you have Matt Ginella continually hyping it on social media. Sure its an inexpensive quick round in a nice town but architecturally its nothing special. Its dead flat, in okay condition but 1,5,6,and the 9th are all driveable par 4s. The 3rd and 4th are good holes. The par 3s are average, the second and eighth play basically the same distance.


I agree that towns need more 9 hole courses with a good vibe but it won't be easy replicating how nice Winter Park is.
Joel,


I’m a bit confused by your post. You appear to trash WP9 as nothing special, but say it won’t be easy replicating how nice WP9 is.


Others above have suggested it is the sand base that will be hard to replicate. Is that what you meant? Or were there other factors you had in mind?


Finally, I strongly believe WP9 is a place students of golf architecture should see and try to learn from. As I am having trouble understanding your post, I’m wondering if you would recommend WP9 to anyone who is in the vicinity of Orlando?


I'm not sure what you don't understand?


It's a nice upscale town with a 9 hole course in a great spot. IMHO the course for anyone with a handicap of 8 or below is boring, especially after 1 round. Last week in the skins game someone made 2 eagles to win. A few weeks ago someone shot 8 under.


I can't imagine why you would suggest anyone studying architecture visit it. Its dead flat with push up greens. There are no hazards except city streets and trees lining every hole. Bunkers are placed in either the front right or front left of the greens. The greens have some movement but if you're below the hole it's not a problem. 

jeffwarne

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2020, 07:21:10 PM »
I played WP9 2 years ago and then again last November after reading about it and thought I missed something.  It helps when you have Matt Ginella continually hyping it on social media. Sure its an inexpensive quick round in a nice town but architecturally its nothing special. Its dead flat, in okay condition but 1,5,6,and the 9th are all driveable par 4s. The 3rd and 4th are good holes. The par 3s are average, the second and eighth play basically the same distance.


I agree that towns need more 9 hole courses with a good vibe but it won't be easy replicating how nice Winter Park is.
Joel,


I’m a bit confused by your post. You appear to trash WP9 as nothing special, but say it won’t be easy replicating how nice WP9 is.


Others above have suggested it is the sand base that will be hard to replicate. Is that what you meant? Or were there other factors you had in mind?


Finally, I strongly believe WP9 is a place students of golf architecture should see and try to learn from. As I am having trouble understanding your post, I’m wondering if you would recommend WP9 to anyone who is in the vicinity of Orlando?


I

IMHO the course for anyone with a handicap of 8 or below is boring, especially after 1 round. Last week in the skins game someone made 2 eagles to win. A few weeks ago someone shot 8 under.




That's boring?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim_Weiman

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2020, 10:45:25 PM »
I played WP9 2 years ago and then again last November after reading about it and thought I missed something.  It helps when you have Matt Ginella continually hyping it on social media. Sure its an inexpensive quick round in a nice town but architecturally its nothing special. Its dead flat, in okay condition but 1,5,6,and the 9th are all driveable par 4s. The 3rd and 4th are good holes. The par 3s are average, the second and eighth play basically the same distance.


I agree that towns need more 9 hole courses with a good vibe but it won't be easy replicating how nice Winter Park is.
Joel,


I’m a bit confused by your post. You appear to trash WP9 as nothing special, but say it won’t be easy replicating how nice WP9 is.


Others above have suggested it is the sand base that will be hard to replicate. Is that what you meant? Or were there other factors you had in mind?


Finally, I strongly believe WP9 is a place students of golf architecture should see and try to learn from. As I am having trouble understanding your post, I’m wondering if you would recommend WP9 to anyone who is in the vicinity of Orlando?


I'm not sure what you don't understand?


It's a nice upscale town with a 9 hole course in a great spot. IMHO the course for anyone with a handicap of 8 or below is boring, especially after 1 round. Last week in the skins game someone made 2 eagles to win. A few weeks ago someone shot 8 under.


I can't imagine why you would suggest anyone studying architecture visit it. Its dead flat with push up greens. There are no hazards except city streets and trees lining every hole. Bunkers are placed in either the front right or front left of the greens. The greens have some movement but if you're below the hole it's not a problem.


Joel,


Like many people here you and I have traveled and been fortunate enough to see and play many of the world’s greatest courses. I wanted to do this ever since I was ten years old and purchased my first golf architecture book: Sports Illustrated’s Best 18 Holes in America.


Hopefully, I get to visit a few more. But, along the way I realized most people don’t get to see many, if any, of the courses we discuss here at GolfClubAtlas. Then, too, I realized one can love golf architecture but also appreciate the game is more than just the very best courses, however much people like ourselves love them.


The Winter Park 9 is a place to appreciate from this perspective: what is good for the game? What would be nice for any community?


Take a place like Elie Golf Club in Scotland. Honestly, I have never played the course or even just walked a few holes. But, just driving through the town one gets the vibe. One sees very young children carrying a bag headed to the course.


That’s golf. That is what a place like Winter Park 9 can offer. That’s why I have no hesitation in saying if you are anywhere near Orlando, go have a look. If one is a practicing architect, hopefully he or she gets to build something like it.
Tim Weiman

Kyle Harris

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2020, 05:48:34 AM »
Bunkers are placed in either the front right or front left of the greens.


I must have missed that particular redundancy on holes 2, 3, 5, 6, and 9.


The location of the back left bunker on the first hole is worthy of a visit alone.


I've yet to make a "boring" 2 or 3 on any golf hole
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 05:50:16 AM by Kyle Harris »
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

jeffwarne

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Re: A Few Days In Florida - Mountain Lake & Winter Park 9
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2020, 08:46:32 AM »
Bunkers are placed in either the front right or front left of the greens.


I must have missed that particular redundancy on holes 2, 3, 5, 6, and 9.


The location of the back left bunker on the first hole is worthy of a visit alone.


I've yet to make a "boring" 2 or 3 on any golf hole


 agreed but those pale in comparison to those monotonous 1's....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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